#16
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Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè, àâòîð òåìû ïðîâèçîð, òåðìèí "ãåìîñòàòè÷åñêàÿ" èñïîëüçîâàí ïî îøèáêå. Íàçâàíèå èñïðàâëåíî, ÷òîáû íå âûçûâàòü äèñêóññèé íà ïóñòîì ìåñòå. Åñòåñòâåííî ê ãåìîñòàòè÷åñêîé òåðàïèè ïðåäìåò îáñóæäåíèÿ îòíîøåíèÿ íå èìååò.
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#17
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Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
[Èçîáðàæåíèÿ äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì] The effects of selected colloid and crystalloid fluids on the plasma volume and interstitial fluid volume. The volume of each fluid infused is shown in parentheses. (From Imm A, Carlson RW. Fluid resuscitation in circulatory shock. Crit Care Clin 1993;9:313.) ß òîæå íå ÿâëÿþñü ãîðÿ÷èì ñòîðîííèêîì êîëëîèäîâ, ñêîðåå íàîáîðîò, íî ïîñìîòðèòå, íèêòî èõ ñíèìàòü ñ ïðîèçîäñòâà íå ñîáèðàåòñÿ - îíè èñïîëüçóþòñÿ âî âñåõ (áåç ïðåóâèëè÷åíèÿ) ãîñïèòàëÿõ ÑØÀ è ìèðà è èìåþò ñâîþ (îãðàíè÷åííóþ) íèøó.  óñëîâèÿõ, êîãäà áûñòðî íàäî âîçìåñòèòü èìåííî âíòðèñîñóäèñòûé îáúåì â óñëîâèÿõ ãèïîâîëåìèè, à ïðåïàðàòû êðîâè ìîãóò áûòü ïî òåì èëè èíûì ïðè÷èíàì íåìåäëåííî äîñòóïíû, ìîãóò èñïîëüçîâàòüñÿ è èñïîëüçóþòñÿ êîëëîèäû. Äðóãàÿ íèøà, íàïðèìåð, 3H-òåðàïèÿ ïðè öåðåáðàëüíîì àíãèîñïàçìå, ñâÿçàííîì ñ àíåâðèçìàòè÷åñêèì ñóáàðàõíîèäàëüíûì êðîâîèçëèÿíèåì - ïîïðîáóé äîáåéñÿ òåõ æå öåëåé êðèñòàëëîèäàìè.  ìåäèöèíå êðèòè÷åñêèõ ñîñòîÿíèé âîîáøå, ïî ïðèáëèçèòåëüíûì îöåíêàì òîëüêî ïðîöåíòîâ 15 èç ìåòîäîâ âìåøàòåëüñòâ, èñïîëüçóþøèõñÿ â ðóòèííîé ïðàêòèêå, èìåþò âûñîêèè êàòåãîðèè äîêàçàòåëüíîñòè. Âñå îñòàëüíîå íà óðîâíå óñòîÿâøèõñÿ è îäîáðåííûõ ìåäèöèíñêèì ñîîáøåñòâîì ñòàíäàðòîâ ïðàêòèêè. Íà ýòó òåìó ñóøåñòâóåò áîëüøîå êîëè÷åñòâî øóòîê, íàïðèìåð êòî-òî èçó÷àë ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ äîêàçàòåëüíîé ìåäèöèíû, èñïîëüçîâàíèå ïàðàøþòà âî âðåìÿ ïðûæêîâ ñ áîëüøîé âûñîòû. Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, êîíòðîëèðóåìûõ ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûõ èññëåäîâàíèé íà ýòó òåìó íå ïðîâîäèëîñü, ïîýòîìó ìåòîä èìååò âñåãî ëèøü êàòåãîðèþ äîêàçàòåëüíîñòè D - "ìíåíèå ýêñïåðòîâ". Öèòàòà:
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#18
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Óâàæàåìûé Àëåêñàíäð Ñåðãååâè÷,
Âîîáùå-òî, ðå÷ü ïðåèìóùåñòâåííî âåäó î çàìåùåíèè æèäêîñòè â ñëó÷àå êðîâîïîòåðè, ïðèìåíåíèå ãèïåðòîíèêîâ è êîëëîèäîâ â îòäåëüíûõ êëèíè÷åñêèõ ñèòóàöèÿõ íå ðàññìàòðèâàþ. ×åñòíî ãîâîðÿ, ìåíÿ òàêæå íå èíòåðåñóåò òåêóùàÿ ïðàêòèêà â ãîñïèòàëÿõ, èáî îíà çà÷àñòóþ èäåò âðàçðåç ñ èìåþùèìñÿ ýâèäåíñîì: Crit Care. 2010 Nov 9;14(6):1006. Rational or rationalized choices in fluid resuscitation? Han J, Martin GS. Division of Pulmonary, Allergy and Critical Care, Emory University School of Medicine, Grady Memorial Hospital, 615 Michael Street, Suite 205, Atlanta, GA 30322 USA. ABSTRACT: The war between colloids and crystalloids wages on. In a large multinational survey of fluid prescribing practices in critically ill patients, we have a new and intriguing snapshot of global fluid resuscitation practices. Colloids are more often used for impaired perfusion or low cardiac output, and the choice of colloid or crystalloid varies enormously between countries. Why are some ICUs prescribing colloids more often than crystalloids when there is little convincing evidence that colloids are superior for fluid resuscitation? Are colloids advantageous in certain diseases, or in specific regional patient populations that have not yet been elucidated? Perhaps we should look inwards: the answer may not be more randomized clinical trials, but better adherence to current guidelines and treatment recommendations. Ìîæíî êîíå÷íî ñòàâèòü ïîä ñîìíåíèå ðåçóëüòàòû ÐÎÊ òðàéëà, íî ýòîò òðàéë äîïîëíÿåò äàííûå äðóãîãî, à òàêæå ïðåäûäóùóþ êîêðýéíîâñêóþ áàçó: íåò êëèíè÷åñêèõ ïðåèìóùåñòâ ó ãèïåðòîíèêîâ ïåðåä èçîòîíèêàìè â äàííûõ êëèíè÷. ñèòóàöèÿõ: A recent Cochrane review concluded that there is no evidence that hypertonic crystalloids are better than isotonic or near-isotonic crystalloids for fluid resuscitation in trauma patients. Two recent trials that were adequately powered to investigate a mortality endpoint were halted for futility. --- Am J Health Syst Pharm. 2010 Nov 15;67(22):1920-8. Use of hypertonic saline injection in trauma. È íèêàêèå êàðòèíêè ìåíÿ â îáðàòíîì íå óáåäÿò... Îãðàíè÷åííîå èñïîëüçîâàíèå êîëëîèäîâ â îïðåäåëåííûõ êëèí. ñèòóàöèÿõ (ïîëå áîÿ, îòñóòñòâèå ýôôåêòà îò èçîòîíèêîâ) ÿ è íå îòðèöàë: ñì. ìîè ñîîáùåíèÿ âûøå...
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#19
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ÇÛ. Ïðî ðàííåå ââåäåíèå ÑÌÏ è êîìïîíåíòîâ ïëàçìû ïðè ïîëèòðàâìå äàæå ìîæåòå ìíå íå ðàññêàçûâàòü - óæå âòîðîé ãîä ðàáîòàþ â òàêîì òðàâìà-öåíòðå â Õüþñòîíå è â îáùåì-òî íàø øåô è ñòîÿë ó èñòîêîâ íàçíà÷åíèÿ òàêîé òåðàïèè âî âòîðîé ïîëîâèíå 2000-õ, à òåïåðü îíà ïðîïèñàíà ñ 2010 â ãàéäàõ Åâðîïû è Ñåâ. Àìåðèêè... Ïðè÷åì ââåäåíèå òàêîãî ïîäõîäà â ðåàëüíóþ ïðàêòèêó äåéñòâèòåëüíî ñíèæàåò ñìåðòíîñòü, à íå áàçèðóåòñÿ íà ôèçèîêîíöåïöèÿõ ïî óäåðæàíèþ ÷åãî-òî òàì ãäå-òî òàì...
È ýòà ïóáëèêàöèÿ-ãàéä èç íàøåãî öåíòðà (â ïîëíîì òåêñòå î ïðèîðèòåòíîì ìåñòå êðèñòàëëîèäîâ, åñëè íóæíî âîñïîëíåíèå ïîñëå êðîâîïîòåðè - íåñìîòðÿ íà òî, ÷òî íàïèñàíà ÄËß ïàðàìåäèêîâ ñ "ìàëî çíàêîìûìè ñ ôèçèîëîãèåé", àâòîðû - âðà÷è): J Trauma. 2009 Aug;67(2):389-402. Guidelines for prehospital fluid resuscitation in the injured patient. Cotton BA, Jerome R, Collier BR, Khetarpal S, Holevar M, Tucker B, Kurek S, Mowery NT, Shah K, Bromberg W, Gunter OL, Riordan WP Jr; Eastern Association for the Surgery of Trauma Practice Parameter Workgroup for Prehospital Fluid Resuscitation. Department of Surgery, University of Texas Health Science Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. Although the need and benefit of prehospital interventions has been controversial for quite some time, an increasing amount of evidence has stirred both sides into more frequent debate. Proponents of the traditional "scoop-and-run" technique argue that this approach allows a more timely transfer to definitive care facilities and limits unnecessary (and potentially harmful) procedures. However, advocates of the "stay-and-play" method point to improvement in survival to reach the hospital and better neurologic outcomes after brain injury. Given the lack of consensus, the Eastern Association for the Surgery of Trauma convened a Practice Management Guideline committee to answer the following questions regarding prehospital resuscitation: (1) should injured patients have vascular access attempted in the prehospital setting? (2) if so, what location is preferred for access? (3) if access is achieved, should intravenous fluids be administered? (4) if fluids are to be administered, which solution is preferred? and (5) if fluids are to be administered, what volume and rate should be infused?
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#20
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Öèòàòà:
Íó, â îáøåì-òî òàêîé çàäà÷è ó ìåíÿ è íå áûëî. ß ïðîñòî ïîäåëèëñÿ îáøèìè âïå÷àòëåíèÿìè î êîíêðåòíîì àñïåêòå êëèíè÷åñêîé ïðàêòèêè (èñïîëüçîâàíèå êîëëîèäîâ), êîòîðûå âèæó â îäíîé èç êëèíèê Èçðàèëÿ è òî, ÷òî íåîäíîêðàòíî ñëûøàë îò êîëëåã, ðàáîòàþøèõ àíåñòåçèîëîãàìè è èíòåíñèâèñòàìè âî âïîëíå öèâèëèçîâàííûõ ñòðàíàõ Åâðîïû è Àìåðèêè. Êîìó-òî ìîæåò áûòü áóäåò èíòåðåñíî. Æèðíóþ òî÷êó â èñïîëüçîâàíèè êîëëîèäíûõ ðàñòâîðîâ öèòèðîâàííîå Âàìè è äðóãèå èññëåäîâàíèå (òî æå VICEF) íå ñòàâèò. È âîâñå íå ïîòîìó, ÷òî èíòåíñèâèñòû è àíåñòåçèîëîãè íå ÷èòàþò àêòóàëüíûõ ñòàòåé è íå óìåþò ïîëüçîâàòüñÿ PubMed. Ïðîñòî çíàíèå àêòóàëüíîãî ýâèäåíñà è ãàéäëàéíñ ïî ïðîáëåìå íå çàìåíÿåò íåîáõîäèìîñòè ãëóáîêîãî èçó÷åíèÿ ôèçèîëîãèè è ïðî÷èõ ôóíäàìåíòàëüíûõ äèñöèïëèí â ðàìêàõ ñâîåé ñïåöèàëüíîñòè è íàîáîðîò. Ýòè êàðòèíêè, êñòàòè, èç èçâåñòíîãî è âïîëíå àêòóàëüíîãî àìåðèêàíñêîãî ó÷åáíèêà ïî ñïåöèàëüíîñòè, ïî êîòîðîìó ãîòîâÿòñÿ ðåçèäåíòû. |
#21
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Öèòàòà:
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#22
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ß íå ñïàñàë ëþäåé ñ ìàññèâíîé êðîâîïîòåðåé, è âðÿä ëè áóäó äåëàòü ýòî â áëèæàéøåå âðåìÿ...  ñëó÷àå îáñóæäåíèÿ êîíêðåòíîé êëèí. ñèòóàöèè äàæå íå ñîáèðàþñü âëàçèòü ñî ñâîèì ìíåíèåì, ïîëó÷åííûì íà îñíîâàíèè ïóáëèêàöèé â Ïàáìåäå. Ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ââåäåíèå àáñòðàêòíîìó ïàöèåíòó ñ êðîâîïîòåðåé ïðè ïîëèòðàâìå ñëåäóåò íà÷èíàòü ñ êðèñòàëëîèäîâ... ìåä íàóêà íå ñòîèò íà ìåñòå è òîãäà êàê â ãàéäå 2004 ÑÌÏ ðåêîìåíäîâàëîñü ââîäèòü ïðè êîàãóëîïàòèè (ïðè îòêëîíåíèÿõ â êîàã. òåñòàõ), òî â ãàéäàõ 2010 óæå ãîâîðèòñÿ î êàê ìîæíî ðàííåì ââåäåíèè. Ìíå íå íóæåí ñòàæ ðàáîòû â îòå÷åñòâåííîé èëè çàðóáåæíîé êëèíèêå, ÷òîá âûñêàçàòü îáùåå ìíåíèå/ðåêîìåíäàöèè ïî îïðåäåëåííîé ïðîáëåìå (íî íå ïî êîíêðåòíîé êëèí. ñèòóàöèè!). Ðåêîìåíäîâàòü øèðîêîå ïðèìåíåíèå êîëëîèäîâ ïðè èõ ïîáî÷êàõ êàê ñðåäñòâî ïåðâîé ëèíèè âìåñòî êðèñòàëëîèäîâ, áàçèðóÿñü íà èñõîäå â÷åðàøíåé îïåðàöèè, íå ñ÷èòàþ ñîîòâåòñòâóþùåé äóõó äîêàçàòåëüíîé ìåäèöèíû.
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
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#23
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Öèòàòà:
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#24
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Öèòàòà:
Íåò, íåò !! Ãîñïîäü ñ Âàìè, íèêòî ýòîãî è íå ïèñàë. Ó êîëëîèäîâ îñòàëàñü ñâîÿ îãðàíè÷åííàÿ íèøà â êëèíè÷åñêîé ïðàêòèêå, õîòÿ îíè è áûëè ñèëüíî ïîòåñíåíû â ïîñëåäíåå âðåìÿ "äîêàçàòåëüíîé ìåäèöèíîé". Âðà÷è àíåñòåçèîëîãè è èíòåíñèâèñòû è îñîáåííî ýêñïåðòû òîæå ÷èòàþò ïàáìåä è â êóðñå ñóøåñòâóþøåãî ýâèäåíñà, êàê è âñåõ âîçìîæíûõ îñëîæíåíèé, ñâÿçàííûõ ñ èñïîëüçîâàíèåì êîëëîèäîâ. Òåì áîëåå ýòî îòíîñèòñÿ ê ñôåðå èõ íåïîñðåäñòâåííîé êîìïåòåíöèè. |
#25
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Öèòàòà:
Ïîæàëóéñòà, âîò íàïðèìåð ññûëêè íà òåêóøèå ñàìûå èçâåñòíûå ãàéäëàéíñ ïî ñàáæó íà âñêèäêó îò Brain Trauma Foundation: https://www.braintrauma.org/coma-guidelines/ Îòêðîéòå ïî ññûëêå Guidelines for the Management of Severe Traumatic Brain Injury, 3rd edition è Guidelines for the Pre-hospital Management of Severe Traumatic Brain Injury, Second Edition îòêðîéòå â îáîèõ äîêóìåíòàõ ðàçäåëû ïî fluid resuscitation è hypertonic dehydratation, â îáîèõ ãàéäëàéíñ hypertonic saline óïîìèíàåòñÿ â êà÷åñòâå âîçìîæíîé òåðàïåâòè÷åñêîé îïöèè, êîòîðàÿ "ðàáîòàåò ïî ìåíüøåé ìåðå íå õóæå ìàííèòîëà" â òåðàïèè âíóòðè÷åðåïíîé ãèïåðòåíçèè.  ðóòèííîé ïðàêòèêå æå, ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèå êðèñòàëëîèäû ïî÷òè ïîëíîñòüþ âûòåñíèëè ìàííèòîë èç èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ äëÿ ýòèõ öåëåé. |
#26
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Íî âåäü êîëëîèäû íå àíãåëû - è â îòëè÷èå îò êðèñòàëëîèäîâ îáëàäàþò âåñüìà âûðàæåííûìè õîðîøî çàäîêóìåíòèðèâàííûìè ïîáî÷êàìè. Åñëè âçÿòü àðìåéñêóþ ìåäèöèíû êðèò. ñîñòîÿíèé, òî íàïð. â òåõ æå øòàòàõ Ãåêñòåíä ïðîñòî èñïîëüçóåòñÿ ÂÌÅÑÒÎ êðèñòàëëîèäîâ áåç âñÿêèõ íà òî òðàéëîâ, ïî âïîëíå îáüÿñíèìûì ïðè÷èíàì: “The U.S. Army has deployed Hextend (6% Hetastarch in Lactated Electrolyte Injection) for initial resuscitation of battlefield casualties because less Hextend is required compared to commonly used saline solution to achieve the same plasma volume expansion effect. This offers a major logistic advantage for a combat medic who has to carry all his supplies in his backpack...” íî ó íèõ â àðìèè ñâîè îãðàíè÷åíèÿ è íà ìèðíóþ ìåäèöèíó îíè íå ðàñïðîñòðàíÿþòñÿ...
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#27
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Öèòàòà:
A few small randomized controlled studies found that hypertonic saline was more effective than mannitol as a hyperosmolar agent for ICP reduction. Recent guidelines from the American Burn Association have suggested that hypertonic saline may be used for burn shock resuscitation by experienced providers with close monitoring to avoid excessive hypernatremia. One of the main concerns with the use of hypertonic saline is its potential to cause central pontine myelinolysis due to a rapid increase in serum sodium levels. (Am J Health Syst Pharm. 2010 Nov 15;67(22):1920-8.)
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#28
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Êîíå÷íî íå àíãåëû ! È êîàãóëîïàòèþ âûçûâàþò, ÷òî ó ïðîäîëæàþøåãî êðîâèòü ïàöèåíòà ñîâñåì íå áóäåò ñïîñîáñòâîâàòü åãî âûçäîðîâëåíèþ. ÍÎ ! Áûâàþò îòäåëüíûå êëèíè÷åñêèå ñèòóàöèè, êîãäà èç äâóõ çîë íàäî âûáèðàòü íàèìåíüøåå. Íàïðèìåð, òîò ïðèìåð, êîòîðûé ÿ ïðèâåë âûøå, ïàöèåíò ñ çàâåäîìî ñíèæåííîé öåðåáðàëüíîé ïåðôóçèåé â ãèïîâîëåìè÷åñêîì øîêå, êîòîðûé íàäî êîìïåíñèðîâàòü, ïî âîçìîæíîñòè, íàèáîëåå áûñòðûì ñïîñîáîì. Ïðåïàðàòû êðîâè, ïî òåì èëè èíûì ïðè÷èíàì íå ìîãóò áûòü íåìåäëåííî äîñòóïíû - äåëàòü íå÷åãî, äàåøü êîëëîèä. Ëó÷øå ðàçáèðàòüñÿ ñ êîàãóëîïàòèåé ïîòîì, ÷åì ïîòåðÿòü ïàöèåíòà (ìîçã ïàöèåíòà) ïðÿìî ñåé÷àñ.
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#29
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Öèòàòà:
Ïðè ýòîì, íàäî îòìåòèòü, ÷òî êëèíè÷åñêè çíà÷èìûé ïîíòèííûé ìèåëèíîëèç ïðè èñïîëüçîâàíèè ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèõ êðèñòàëëîèäîâ - ýòî ýêñòðåìàëüíî ðåäêîå ÿâëåíèå. Ìíå íàïðèìåð çà ïàðó ëåò ðàáîòû â íåéðîõðóðãèè è ïðàêòè÷åñêè åæåäíåâíîãî èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèõ êðèñòàëëîèäîâ ó ñâîèõ ïàöèåíòîâ íå "ïîñ÷àñòëèâèëîñü" óâèäåòü. Îí îïèñàí ïðåèìóøåñòâåííî ó áîëüíûõ ñ õðîíè÷åñêîé ãèïîíàòðèåìèåé, êîòîðûì ïûòàëèñü áûñòðî êîìïåíñèðîâàòü óðîâåíü íàòðèÿ ñ ïîìîøüþ êîíöåíòðèðîâàííûõ ðàñòâîðîâ. Ïî ýòîé ïðè÷èíå â íàñòîÿøåå âðåìÿ èñïîëüçîâàíèå ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèõ êðèñòàëëîèäîâ ó áîëüíûõ ñ õðîíè÷åñêîé ãèïîíàòðèåìèåé íå ðåêîìåíäóåòñÿ, çà èñêëþ÷åíèåì òåõ, ó êîòîðûõ ãèïîíàòðèåìèÿ ñîïðîâîæäàåòñÿ ðàçâèòèåì ñóäîðîã. |
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Òàê äëÿ òîãî è êîëëîèäû, íåñìîòðÿ íà èõ îãðàíè÷åíèÿ, âñå åùå è èìåþòñÿ â íàëè÷èè íàðÿäó ñ êðèñòàëëîèäàìè, ÷òî á íå áûëî êàê â òîé ðîäíîé ïîãîâîðêå "è äëÿ êàæäîé áîëåçíè ó íàñ èìååòñÿ ïî îäíîìó ëåêàðñòâó" - âñåãäà æåëàòåëüíû àëüòåðíàòèâû, íå âñå àäåêâàòíî ðåàãèðóþò íà ëå÷åíèå ïåðâîé ëèíèè...
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |