#16
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#17
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Íó âîïðîñ-òî áûë î ïðàêòèêå â ðàçâèòûõ ñòðàíàõ ".. (ñì. ïåðâûé ïîñò)", ê êîòîðûì Ëèâàí îòíîøåíèÿ íå èìååò.
Äà è ïðî÷èòàéòå âîïðîñ âíèìàòåëüíî. |
#18
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Íó âî ïåðâûõ ó÷èëñÿ ÿ íå â Ëèâàíå, ÿ òàì ñåé÷àñ ðàáîòàþ. Âî âòîðûõ, ñ ìîåãî ñêðîìíîãî îïûòà îáùåíèÿ áîëüøå ÷åì ñ 100 ñïåöèàëèñòàìè èç ñòðàí ÑÍà è Ðîññèè, ðàäèîëîãèÿ â Ëèâàíå ðàçâèòà íàìíîãî ëó÷øå ÷åì â òîé æå Ðîññèè. Âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå ìîÿ êëèíèêà ïîëó÷èëà 3 ãîäà íàçàä ñåðòèôèêàò ISO, à ýòî ñâèäåòåëüñòâóåò î êà÷åñòâå îêàçûâàåìûõ íàìè óñëóã.  òðåòüõ, íå ïîíÿë çà÷åì Âû ïåðåõîäèòå íà ëè÷íîñòè? È íàêîíåö, ÷òî íå òàê ÿ ïîíÿë â âîïðîñå?
Öèòèðóþ ïåðâûé ïîñò: "Êîíðàñòíîå óñèëåíèå ïðè ÊÒ è ÌÐÒ - êàê ÷àñòî? Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè! Êàê ÷àñòî â îíêîëîãèè íåîáõîäèì êîíòðàñò ïðè ÊÒ è ÌÐÒ? Íå óêàæèòå ëè ñòàòèñòèêó èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ êîíòðàñòà â ðàçâèòûõ ñòðàíàõ? __________________ Ñåðãåé Ïëÿñóíîâ (äëÿ òåõ, êòî óêàçûâàåò ñâî¸ îò÷åñòâî - Ñåðãåé Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷) " Íà ïåðâóþ ÷àñòü âîïðîñà ÿ è ïûòàþñü îòâåòèòü, çàîäíî è íàëàäèòü äèñêóññèþ ñ êîëëåãàìè êëèíèöèñòàìè. Åñëè âàì ýòî íå èíòåðåñíî, èëè Âû ïðåäïî÷èòàåòå ëè÷íîñòíûå âûÿñíåíèÿ, çíà÷èò íàì íå ïî ïóòè, è ÿ çàøeë ñþäà çðÿ. Ñ Óâàæåíèåì. |
#19
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Ëè÷íîãî íå áûëî. ß â ïðèíöèïå íå ìîã ñîãëàñèòüñÿ ñ çàÿâëåíèåì "ÂÑÅÃÄÀ" - òàêîãî íå áûâàåò.
Êîíêðåòíûé îíêîïðèìåð. Á-îé 50 ëåò, òó÷íûé, ñ äàò÷èêîì ðèòìà, ñîñòîÿíèå "ñðåäíåé òÿæåñòè", áèîïñèÿ ëèìôîóçëà "ÍÕË", êðåàòèíèí 159, ÓÇÈ íèçêîãî êà÷åñòâà: ïàðààîðòàëüíàÿ ëèìôàäåíîïàòèÿ, ïî÷êè óâåëè÷åíû ñ ãåòåðîãåííîé îòðàæàòåëüíîñòüþ, ïîæàëóéñòà ñòàäèðóéòå ëèìôîìó. Äàëè áû Âû êîíòðàñò? |
#20
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Öèòàòà:
Àðãóìåíòîâ "òàê ãîâîðèò ëèâàíñêàÿ ìåäèöèíà" ÿ ñî ñòîðîíû Âàøåãî îïïîíåíòà íå çàìåòèë. Äàâàéòå îñòàâàòüñÿ â ðàìêàõ.
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Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Âàëåðèé Âàëåðüåâè÷ Ñàìîéëåíêî |
#21
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Ìîäåðàòîðû: áëàãîäàðþ!
Óâàæàåìåûé êîëëåãà; ýòîò ôîðóì áûë îçàãëàâëåí êàê: äèàëîãè âðà÷åé. Êîíå÷íî íèêòî íå áóäåò äàâàòü êîíòðàñò ïàöèåíòàì ñ íàðóøåíèåì âûäåëèòåëüíîé ôóíêöèè ïî÷åê; äåêîìïåíñèðîâàíîé ñåðäå÷íîé ïàòîëîãèåé (òà æå àðèòìèÿ ìîæåò ñîðâàòü ìóëüòèôàçîâîå ÊÒ èññëåäîâàíèå) è ò.ä. Ñóùåñòâóþò æå ïðîòèâîïîêàçàíèÿ è îòíîñèòåëüíûå ïðîòèâîïîêàçàíèÿ ê ââåäåíèþ éîäîñîäåðæàùèõ êîíòðàñòíûõ âåùåñòâ. Õîòÿ, â ìîåé ïðàêòèêå èíîãäà ïðèõîäèëîñü äàâàòü êîíòðàñò è ïðè ïî÷å÷íîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòè, íî ìû ñðàçó ïåðåâîäèëè íà ãåìîäèàëèç, èíîãäà áûâàåò íåîáõîäèìîñòü ïî æèçíåííûì ïîêàçàíèÿì. Êîãäà ÿ íàïèñàë ÷òî â îíêîëîãèè ÊÒ âñåãäà íàäî ïðîâîäèòü ñ êîíòðàñòèðîâàíèåì, ìíå íàäî áûëî äîáàâèòü: êîíå÷íî â îòñóñòâèè ïðîòèâîïîêàçàíèé ê ââåäåíèþ êîíòðàñòà (ìíå êàçàëîñü ÷òî ýòî è òàê ïîíÿòíî). ß æå âûðàçèë ñîâðåìåííóþ òî÷êó çðåíèÿ âèçóàëèçàöèè â îíêîëîãèè. Òàê ÷òî íàø ñïîð íàïîìèíàåò äèñêóññèþ: -ïîëîñòíûå îïåðàöèè íàäî âûïîëíÿò ïîä îáùèì íàðêîçîì. Îòâåò-íå âñåãäà; áûâàþò ïðîòèâîïîêàçàíèÿ. Âûâîä: êîíå÷íî áûâàþò, íî îáùåå ïðàâèëî îñòàeòñÿ òåì æå-ïîëîñòíûå îïåðàöèè äîëæíû ïðîâîäèòñÿ ïîä îáùèì íàðêîçîì. À â Ðîññèè, äëÿ ðàäèîëîãîâ ðàáîòàþùèõ èìåííî â Ðîññèè, âàæíî ÷òî áû êëèíèöèñòû ïîíÿëè ýòîò ïðèíöèï, èáî ñèñòåìà çäðàâîîõðàíåíèÿ è îòíîñèòåëüíàÿ áåäíîñòü ðåñóðñîâ ãîñóäàðñòâåííûõ êëèíèê, ïðåâðàùàåò ÊÒ ñ áîëþñîì â ðîñêîøü; êîòîðóþ ìàëî êòî ìîæåò ñåáå ïîçâîëèòü. À íàäî, ÷òî áû ýòî ïðåâðàòèëîñü â ñòàíäàðò! À ïî ïîâîäó ñòàäèðîâàíèÿ NHL áåç êîíòðàñòèðîâàíèÿ (ìû äåëàåì Neck, Thoracic, Abdominal & Pelvic CT), åñòü ðèñê ïðîïóñòèòü/íå ïðàâèëüíî îöåíèòü î÷àãîâûå ïîðàæåíèÿ ñåëåç¸íêè, ïå÷åíè èëè ïî÷åê.  òàêîì ñëó÷àå, íàäî îöåíèòü êàêîé ðèñê áîëåå îïàñíûé: íåàäåêâàòíàÿ õèìèîòåðàïèÿ íà îñíîâàíèè íåïðàâèëüíîãî ñòàäèðîâàíèÿ; èëè ïðÿìàÿ óãðîçà ïàöèåíòó ïîñëå ââåäåíèÿ êîíòðàñòà. Íî ïî ïðîòîêîëó: íàäî äåëàòü ñ áîëþñíûì êîíòðàñòíûì óñèëåíèåì. P.S. Êîëëåãà, ÿ ñþäà ïðèø¸ë íå ñðàæàòñÿ è íå äîêàçûâàòü êòî çäåñü ñàìûé óìíûé; ìíå õâàòàåò ñàìîâûðàæåíèÿ íà àíàëîãè÷íûõ ñîáñòâåííûõ èíòåðíåò ïðîåêòàõ ïî íàøåé ñïåöèàëüíîñòè. Ìîÿ öåëü áûëà çàâÿçàòü äèññêóññèþ ñ êëèíèöèñòàìè, äëÿ êîòîðûõ ìû â ïðèíöèïå è ïèøåì íàøè ïðîòîêîëû. Ñ Óâàæåíèåì. |
#22
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Îíêî-êëèíèêè ðàçâèòûõ ñòðàí, ïðàêòè÷åñêè íå èñïîëüçóþò ÊÒ ïðîòîêîëû áåç êîíòðàñòíîãî óñèëåíèÿ.
Cross Cancer Institute, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. by Steven B. Halls, MD, FRCPC. Äëÿ ïðèìåðà, âîò ññûëêà: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] Âûäåðæêà: .....Our CT scanning practice at the Cross Cancer Institute, is primarily for Oncology. The diversity of our protocols is therefore smaller than a typical tertiary hospital. For example, we don't need "trauma" protocols, and we rarely do non-contrast-enhanced scanning. The few other protocols listed below, are not a complete description of our protocols. The list simply notes some concepts about a few of them.... Ïðèâåä¸ííàÿ âûøå èíôîðìàöèÿ, òîëüêî äëÿ ïðèìåðà.  èíòåðíåòå ìîæíî íàéòè ìàññó ññûëîê. Bûäåðæêè èç ACR ñòàíäàðòîâ ïî ââåäåíèþ êîíòðàñòíûõ âåùåñòâ: Ðåêîììåíäàöèè ïî ÊÒ øåè, áðþøíîé è òàçîâûõ îáëàñòåé: ....intravenous contrast is recommended in patients without contraindications.... Îáùèå ðåêîììåíäàöèè ïî ââåäåíèþ êîíòðàñòíûõ ïðåïaðàòîâ: ....Intravascular contrast media are used for a large variety of imaging studies. The majority of intravascular contrastenhanced imaging examinations involve iodinated contrast material, but other intravascular agents may be used for magnetic resonance imaging, ultrasonic imaging, and angiography..... ....The goal of radiologists and other personnel administering intravascular contrast material should be to utilize these agents appropriately and properly so that imaging studies are optimized and risk to the patient is minimized... ....IV. INTRAVASCULAR CONTRAST MEDIA A. Iodinated 1. For specific details (e.g., nephrotoxicity and drug interactions) refer to the ACR Manual on Contrast Media, 4.1 edition.... ....3. Patients considered likely to benefit from use of LOCM are those patients at increased overall risk for adverse effects. They include: a. Patients with a history of any previous adverse effect from intravascular iodinated contrast material, with the exception of a sensation of heat, flushing, or a single episode of nausea or vomiting. b. Patients with asthma. c. Patients with previous serious allergic reactions to materials other than contrast agents. d. Patients with known cardiac dysfunction, including recent or potentially imminent cardiac decompensation, dysrhythmias, unstable angina pectoris, recent myocardial infarction, and pulmonary hypertension. e. Patients with renal insufficiency (particularly those with diabetes). f. Patients with generalized debilitation as determined by a physician. g. Patients at high risk for contrast extravasation. h. Patients receiving contrast by power injector. i. Any other circumstances in which, after due consideration, the radiologist believes there is a specific indication for the use of LOCM. Examples include, but are not restricted to: i. Patients at increased risk for aspiration. ii. Patients who are very anxious about the contrast procedure or who request or demand the use of LOCM. iii. Patients in whom the risk factors cannot be satisfactorily established.... Íàäåþñü ÷òî òåïåðü âñå ðàçíîãëàñèÿ, âåðíåå (misunderstanding) äîëæíû áûòü ðàçâåÿíû. |
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#23
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Ìû ïðèäåðæèâàåìñÿ, â öåëîì, ñëåäóþøåãî:
Prevention of Nephrotoxicity with Iodinated Contrast Media A. Requirements for CREATININE testing prior to iodinated contrast media injections (for the purpose of reducing the chance of contrast-induced renal failure): 1. Patients > 50 years of age are to have a recent (within 30 days) serum creatinine prior to contrast injection. 2. Patients < 50 years of age do not require labs, UNLESS the patient has one or more of the following: · An underlying medical condition that impairs the renal system · Cancer · Recently (within 30 days) had chemotherapy · History of renal disease. · Diabetes mellitus · Receiving treatment with potentially nephrotoxic drugs 3. When clinical findings or history raise doubt about the patient’s current renal function, a STAT creatinine should be done prior to injecting contrast media. B. If the serum creatinine is > 1.5 mg/dl, the referring clinician should be called and advised about alternative imaging approaches, such as MRI or a non-contrast CT. If the creatinine is > 1.5 but < 2.0 mg/dl, and the referring physician and radiologist have determined that a contrast-enhanced imaging study must be done to obtain critical medical information, the contrast may be given with the following precautions: 1. Patient should be pretreated with Mucomyst (N-acetylcysteine), either: a. Orally, 600 mg twice daily on the day before and the day of the contrast imaging study, or b. Intravenously, 150 mg/kg over 30 minutes before contrast administration, followed by 50 mg/kg over 4 hours. 2. Bicarbonate 150 mEq in 1000 cc D5W, 3 cc/kg bolus, then 1 cc/kg/hr x 6 hours. 3. Adequate patient hydration must be maintained. C. Adequate patient hydration is important to minimize the risk of nephrotoxicity. Unless monitored by anesthesia, no patient receiving radiographic contrast should have NPO orders. If iodinated agents are used, the imaging study should be scheduled before the patient’s dialysis on the same day, or dialysis can be done within 24 hours after contrast injection. Prevention of Allergic-Type Contrast Reactions A. For patients receiving iodinated contrast media, obtain a complete history of allergies to medications and food, as well as previous reactions. 1. The patient is to fill in the attached questionnaire. 2. The technologist is to review the questionnaire with the patient prior to injection. 3. The questionnaire is part of the patient’s medical record. The Technologist is to complete the information regarding type and volume of contrast and reactions, then sign questionnaire, post injection 4. Non-Ionic contrast media is the preferred contrast for intravenous contrast injection. For patients receiving gadolinium contrast media, ask about any prior reactions to dyes or contrast used in X-ray, CT, or MRI. B. For patients receiving iodinated contrast media, pre-treatment to prevent or lessen reactions should be given under the following guidelines: 1. Patients with history of · Prior mild contrast reaction · Moderate or severe reaction to foods or medications. Moderate or severe reactions include any reaction more severe than itching and/or hives. · Asthmatics, actively using inhalers or medications Note: if an asthmatic patient is under the care of a pulmonary physician, check with their physician prior to prescribing steroids. 2. If a patient arrives without being pre-treated, it is preferable to reschedule the exam to allow steroid treatment. Alternative options are at the discretion of the Radiologist. If there is a history of moderate to severe contrast reaction, another radiological procedure (MRI, non-contrast CT, US or Nuclear Medicine) should be considered as an alternative |
#24
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Ñïàñèáî, òàê è ÿ îá ýòîì òîæå íàïèñàë âûøå. Ìíå èíòåðåñíî, ðàçâå åñòü òàêîé ðàäèîëîã êîòîðûé âîçüìeò ïàöèåíòà íà êîíòðàñòèðîâàíèå íå îöåíèâ ðèñê íåôðîòîêñè÷íîñòè èëè íå ó÷èòûâàÿ åãî îáùåå êëèíè÷åñêîå ñîñòîÿíèå? Ìîæåò âåðí¸ìñÿ ê îñíîâíîìó âîïðîñó äàííîãî ôîðóìà: íàäî ëè èñïîëüçîâàòü êîíòðàñòèðîâàíèå â îíêîëîãèè?
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#25
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 Áåéðóòå åñòü ðàäèîëîãè, ïðîøåäøèå RCR ïîäãîòîâêó: Àë-Êóòóáè è Õàääàä, óâåðåí Âû èõ çíàåòå. Èíòåðåñíî, ñ ÷åì îíè ñåé÷àñ ñîãëàñíû, ïîèíòåðåñóéòåñü (Âëàäèìèð, åñëè ÿ íå îøèáàþñü...).
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#26
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Óâàæàåìûé êîëëåãà! Ïî÷åìó âàñ òàê òÿíåò ïåðåõîäèòü íà ëè÷íîñòè? È êòî òàêîé Âëàäèìèð?????
Äîêòîðó Ì.Õàääàä ÿ ìîãó ïåðåäàòü ïðèâåò îò Âàñ, ïðàâäà íå çíàþ êàê Âàñ íàçâàòü.  îòäåëåíèè ðàäèîëîãèè AUB MC (American University of Beirut Medical Center), ïàöèåíòû ñ îíêîëîãèåé, â ïîäàâëÿþùåì áîëüøèíñòâå, îáñëåäóþòñÿ ñ â/â ââåäåíèåì êîíòðàñòà. Ñïåöèàëüíî äîïèñûâàþ äëÿ Âàñ: êîíòðàñò ââîäèòñÿ ïðè îòñóñòâèè ïðîòèâîïîêàçàíèé; ó ïàöèåíòîâ ñ äèñêóòàáåëüíûì ñòàòóñîì, ðåøåíèå ïðèíèìàåòñÿ èíäèâèäóàëüíî ïîñëå âçâåøèâàíèÿ âñåõ ðèñêîâ. (Ñì. âñ¸ íàïèñàííîå âûøå). Áîã ìîé, ÿ äî ñèõ ïîð íå ïîíèìàþ Âàøó òî÷êó çðåíèÿ, Âû ñ÷èòàåòå ÷òî îíêî- ïàöèåíòîâ íàäî îáñëåäîâàòü áåç êîíòðàñòèòîâàíèÿ? Èëè Âàñ íå óñòðàèâàåò ñòðàíà ãäå ÿ íà äàííûé ìîìåíò ðàáîòàþ? Ññûëêó íà Îíêî- êëèíèêó è èõ ñòàíäàðòû â Êàíàäå ÿ óæå ïðèâîäèë, íàäåþñü Âû ñ÷èòàåòå Êàíàäó äîñòàòî÷íî öèâèëèçîâàííîé ñòðàíîé, ÿ èìåë ÷åñòü òàì ïðîõîäèòü ÷àñòü ñâîåé ñïåöèàëèçàöèè. Èëè òîò ôàêò; ÷òî ñ÷èòàÿ äàííûé ôîðóì "÷èñòî" âðà÷åáíûì; ÿ íå íàïèñàë ñðàçó: êîíòðàñò íàäî ââîäèò òîëüêî ïîñëå îöåíêè ñîñòîÿíèÿ ïàöèåíòà; óðîâíÿ êðåàòèíèà, àíàìíåçà äèàáåòà, êàðäèî- çàáîëåâàíèé è ò.ä. Ñïðàâåäëèâî ñ÷èòàÿ ÷òî òàêîé ïîäõîä ýòî ñòàíäàðò êîòîðûé ïîäðàçóìåâàåòñÿ ñàì ñîáîé, òàêæå êàê êîãäà õèðóðã ïèøåò: ÿ âûïîëíèë ëàïàðîòîìèþ, îí íå áyäåò ïèñàòü: ÿ ñíà÷àëà îáðàáîòàë êîæíûå ïîêðîâû àíòèñïåòèêàìè è ò.ä., ýòî è òàê ïîíÿòíî. Íàøà äèñêóññèÿ, íà ìîé ñêðîìíûé âçãëÿä, ïåðåøëà èç íàó÷íîãî ñïîðà î öåëåñîîáðàçíîñòè êîíòðàñòèðîâàíèÿ ïðè îíêîëîãèè, â ñôåðó ëè÷íûõ àìáèöèèé (ïðîñòèòå ìåíÿ åñëè ÿ íå ïðàâ). È ÿ äóìàþ ÷òî ýòî íèêîìó íå èíòåðåñíî; âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå ìíå ëè÷íî. Åñëè åñòü æåëàíèå ïîîáùàòñÿ èñêëþ÷èòåëüíî ïî Ðàäèîëîãèè è Ìåäèöèíå, âñåãäà áóäó ðàä òàêîìó îáùåíèþ. Ñ Óâàæåíèåì ê Âàì è âñåì ó÷àñòíèêàì ôîðóìà. |
#27
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Ñïàñèáî, óâàæåìûé êîëëåãà! "Ñûð-áîð" ðàçãîðåëñÿ â ñâÿçè ñ ñîäåðæàíèåì Âàøåãî ïîñòà 4. À èìåííî èç-çà ðåêîìåíäàöèè ââîäèòü â/â êîíòðàñò "ÂÑÅÃÄÀ" è çàÿâëåíèÿ, ÷òî çà íåââåäåíèå êîíòðàñòà á-ì ñ åïèãàñòðàëüíîé áîëüþ (íå îíêîëîãè÷åñêèì), ðàäèîëîã áóäåò îñóæä¸í è ïîòåðÿåò ëèöåíçèþ. ÈÌÕÎ, ïåðåáîð.
 ïîñëåäñòâèè Âû îáüÿñíèëè ñâîþ ïîçèöèþ, ñîãëàñåí, ÷òî îñîáîé ðàçíèöû â èñïîëüçóåìûõ ãàéäàõ íåò. Ïðàêòèêà UK èçëàãàåòñÿ â êëþ÷åâîì äîêóìåíòå: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] è ïðåêðàñíîì ðóêîâîäñòâå: Textbook of Contrast Media by Peter Dawson; David O. Cosgrove; Ronald G Grainger  ïðèíöèïå, âðîäå áû ïîðÿäêà 10-15% ïàöèåíòîâ, êîòîðûì íóæíî áûëî áû äàòü êîíòðàñò, åãî íå ïîëó÷àþò (öèôðà ñïîðíàÿ). ×òî æå êàñàåòñÿ ìåäèêî-þðèäè÷åñêèõ àñïåêòîâ, òî åòó òåìó ëó÷øå, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, íå çàòðàãèâàòü ïî ìàññå, íàäåþñü, èçâåñòíûõ Âàì ïðè÷èí. ×òî æå êàñàåòñÿ Âëàäèìèðà, åñëè îøèáñÿ, ïðèíîøó èçâèíåíèÿ, îí ïàðåíü ïðèÿòíûé. |
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Íó ñëàâà áîãó ÷òî ðàçîáðàëèñü! Íàäåþñü íà âçàèìîïðèÿòíîå è ïîëåçíîå îáùåíèå.
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