#16
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#17
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Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
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#18
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Öèòàòà:
[Correction of immunity disorders, treatment of intestinal infections and disbiosis in children (clinical review)]. Romantsov MG, Tikhomirova OV. Antibiot Khimioter. 2010;55(5-6):41-9. Review. Russian. [Biocenosis sparing treatment in the surgery of gastro-intestinal tract]. Lazarev SM, Voronina OV. Vestn Khir Im I I Grek. 2009;168(1):84-8. Russian. [Microbiocenosis of parietal mucin in gastrointestinal tract of rats with induced disbiosis]. Nesvizhskiĭ IuV, Bogdanova EA, Zverev VV, Vorob'ev AA. Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol. 2007 May-Jun;(3):57-60. Russian. [Microbiota of the large bowel in patients with allergic diseases]. Leonova AIu, Romanenko EE, Baturo AP. Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol. 2007 May-Jun;(3):69-72. Russian. Èññëåäîâàíèå ýëåêòðè÷åñêîé àêòèâíîñòè æåëóäêà è êèøå÷íèêà - ýòî çàóðÿäíûé Ph-ìîíèòîð? Íàøè ñ Âàìè ïîíÿòèÿ î çàóðÿäíîñòè ðàñõîäÿòñÿ. Èëè Âû íå ïîíÿòè ñóòè èññëåäîâàíèÿ. |
#19
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Ñêàæèòå! Ñêàæèòå ïîæàëóéñòà!!!
ß òàê äàâíî èñêàë ñïåöèàëèñòà, êîòîðîìó ìîæíî çàäàòü ýòîò âîïðîñ - à ïî÷åìó äèñáèîç êèøå÷íèêà èññëåäóþò òîëüêî â Ðîññèè (ÑÑÑÐ)? Âîò äàæå îòîáðàííûå Âàìè - âåðîÿòíî íàèáîëåå àâòîðèòåòíûå èññëåäîâàíèÿ - íà 75... íåò! íà 100% ðóññêîãî ïðîèñõîæäåíèÿ.
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Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Âàëåðèé Âàëåðüåâè÷ Ñàìîéëåíêî |
#20
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Çà ðóáåæîì íåò òàêîãî ñèíäðîìà - äèñáàêòåðèîç. Åñòü òîëüêî ïîíÿòèÿ "ñèíäðîì èçáûòî÷íîãî áàêòåðèàëüíîãî ðîñòà" è "àíòèáèîòèê-àññîöèèðîâàííàÿ äèàðåÿ". Ïî÷åìó - âîïðîñ ê ñïåöèàëèñòàì ôîðóìà. Íî â ëþáîì ñëó÷àå, åñëè ÷òî-òî íå ïðèçíàíî íà çàïàäå, à ïðèçíàåòñÿ òîëüêî â Ðîññèè - ýòî íå ïîâîä îòâåãðàòü è îïðîâåðãàòü òðóä íàøèõ ó÷åíûõ.
À îòîáðàííûå ìíîé èññëåäîâàíèÿ - íà 100% ðîññèéñêèå - ýòî òî÷íî. |
#21
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Íî ïî÷åìó?
Èìåííî ó Âàñ ÿ õî÷ó ñïðîñèòü - âåäü ýòî èìåííî Âû ñåãîäíÿ ãîòîâû îòñòîÿòü ïîçèöèè îòå÷åñòâåííîé øêîëû, îñíîâàííîé íà êëèíè÷åñêîì îïûòå. Ñïåöèàëèñòû ôîðóìà - îíè áîëüøå ãàéäëàéíû ÷èòàþò è íà ìîè âîïðîñû îòâå÷àòü íå õîòÿò, à èíòåðåñíî - ïî÷åìó ýòà ïðîáëåìà íèêîìó íå èíòåðåñíû - âåäü íå ìîæåò æå áûòü òàê, ÷òî áû âî âñåõ îñòàëüíûõ ñòðàíàõ äóðàêè æèëè (ìû òî âåäü òîæå íå îíè - "ñèíäðîì èçáûòî÷íîãî áàêòåðèàëüíîãî ðîñòà" è "àíòèáèîòèê-àññîöèèðîâàííàÿ äèàðåÿ" - ýòî ñîâñåì äðóãèå ïîíÿòèÿ). - ïî÷åìó îòå÷åñòâåííàÿ øêîëà ïðåäëàãàåò (îïèðàÿñü íà îïûò, åñòåñòâåííî) ïðîáèîòèêè per os - âåäü îíè äîëæíû ïîãèáíóòü â àãðåññèâíîé ñðåäå æååëóäêà è ïåðåâàðèòüñÿ... - è ãëàâíîå - êòî, ãäå è êàê óñòàíîâèë íîðìû áàêòåðèàëüíîé îáñåìåíåííîñòè êàëà è åå ñâÿçü ñ êëèíè÷åñêèì ïðîãíîçîì. Íó ðàññêàæèòå ... íå äàéòå äóðàêîì ïîìåðåòü.
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Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Âàëåðèé Âàëåðüåâè÷ Ñàìîéëåíêî |
#22
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ÎÊ, ïîïðîáóþ îòâåòèòü. Íà çàïàäå ñ÷èòàåòñÿ, ÷òî ñîñòàâ ìèêðîôëîðû êèøå÷íèêà èíäèâèäóàëåí. Ïóñòü õîòü 100% áèôèäîáàêòåðèé, à ëàêòîáàêòåðèé, ýíòåðîêîêêîâ, êàíäèäà è ò.ä. 0 - ýòî èíäèâèäóàëüíî. È òî÷êà.
Óäèâèòåëüíî ïðè ýòîì, ÷òî â 2005 ãîäó â Ìîíðåàëå ïðîøåë Âñåìèðíûé êîíãðåññ ïî ãàñòðîýíòåðîëîãèè, ãäå îñâåùàëèñü âîïðîñû ïðèìåíåíèÿ ïðîáèîòèêîâ. Åñëè âñå òàê èíäèâèäóàëüíî, çà÷åì ÷òî-òî ïîðòèòü? Âî ÷òî-òî âìåøèâàòüñÿ? Íîðìû ñîäåðæàíèÿ áàêòåðèàëüíîé ôëîðû â êèøå÷íèêå óñòàíàâëèâàëèñü Â.Ì.Áîíäàðåíêî è ñîàâò. â 1991, ïåðåñìàòðèâàëèñü íå ðàç, ïîñëåäíèé ðàç Áàðàíîâñêèì è Êîíäðàøèíîé â êíèãå "Äèñáàêòåðèîç è äèñáèîç êèøå÷íèêà". Íî, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, îíè ïðàêòè÷åñêè òîæäåñòâåííû ïðåäûäóùèì íîðìàòèâàì. Ïî÷åìó ïðîáèîòèêè ïðèìåíÿþòñÿ per os. Ìíîãèå ñåé÷àñ ïðîèçâîäÿòñÿ â êèøå÷íîðàñòâîðèìîé îáîëî÷êå è âûñâîáîæäàþòñÿ òîëüêî â êèøå÷íèêå. Ê æèäêèì ïðîáèîòèêàì ÿ îòíîøóñü... íå î÷åíü õîðîøî, ïîòîìó ÷òî ñîãëàñíà ñ Âàìè, ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ ëîãèêè, îíè äîëæíû ïåðåâàðèòüñÿ! Êðîìå òîãî, ñåé÷àñ ñóùåñòâóþò êîìáèíèðîâàííûå ïðîáèîòèêè, êîòîðûå ñîäåðæàò â ñåáå êîìïëåêñ âèòàìèíîâ è ìèíåðàëîâ (Ëèíåêñ-áèî, Áèîí-3). Ýòè ïðåïàðàòû åùå ïðîõîäÿò êëèíè÷åñêèå èññëåäîâàíèÿ, íî ìû â ãàñòðîöåíòðå ñ÷èòàåì ÷òî ýòî íîâûé øàã, ïîòîìó ÷òî äèñáàêòåðèîç è àâèòàìèíîç ó ïàöèåíòîâ ïîä÷àñ òåñíî ñâÿçàíû. |
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#23
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Çäðàâñòâóéòå, óâàæàåìàÿ êîëëåãà.
1. Ìíå êàæåòñÿ - âû ñìåøàëè 2 ïîíÿòèÿ â îäíî è íàâÿçûâàåòå òàêóþ ïîçèöèþ íàì. Õî÷åòñÿ ïîä÷åðêíóòü, ÷òî "äèñáàêòåðèîç" è "ëå÷åíèå ïðîáèîòèêàìè" íå îäíî è òî æå. Öèòàòà:
 íåì ñîäåðæèòñÿ êâèíòýññåíöèÿ èññëåäîâàíèé è êëèíè÷åñêèõ ïîäõîäîâ ñâÿçàííûõ ñ ïðîáèîòèêàìè íà íàñòîÿùèé ìîìåíò. Ïðîáèîòèêàìè "â öèâèëèçàöèè" ëå÷àò íå äèñáàêòåðèîç. 2. Ïîíÿòèå "äèñáèîç" - âåñüìà ÷àñòî âñòðå÷àåòñÿ â çàïàäíîé ëèòåðàòóðå. Ðàçíèöà íå â ýòîì. Ðàçíèöà â òîì, ÷òî îíè ýòî íàçûâàþò "ñîñòîÿíèåì" (ïðè÷åì â ïîäàâëÿþùåì áîëüøèíñòâå ñëó÷àåâ - ñàìîïðîèçâîëüíî ïðîõîäÿùèì) à ìû âîçâåëè åãî â ðàíã ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíîé íîçîëîãè÷åñêîé åäèíèöû ñî âñåìè âûòåêàþùèìè ïîñëåäñòâèÿìè. 3. Åñëè âû âñå æå ðåøèëè Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
 ñåòè íàâåðíÿêà æå åñòü ìàòåðèàëû ñ ýòîãî êîíãðåññà, åñëè âû õîòèòå ïîäòâåðäèòü ñâîè ñëîâà ýòèìè ìàòåðèàëàìè - íàéäèòå èõ è äàéòå íàì ññûëêó è öèòàòó. Ìû æå íå íà âåðó äîëæíû ïðèíèìàòü âàøè ñëîâà?
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Òîëüêî ïîìíèòå: ôîðóì - íå çàìåíà î÷íîìó âðà÷ó, à ëå÷åíèå ïî èíòåðíåòó - ÷ðåâàòî ñìåðòüþ îò îïå÷àòêè. Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Ñåðãåé Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷. |
#24
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È åùå, ïðîñòî ÷òîáû íàì "óñëîâèòüñÿ î ïðàâèëàõ" äèñêóññèè - ïðî÷òèòå, ïîæàëóéñòà:
http://forums.rusmedserv.com/showthread.php?t=32012
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Òîëüêî ïîìíèòå: ôîðóì - íå çàìåíà î÷íîìó âðà÷ó, à ëå÷åíèå ïî èíòåðíåòó - ÷ðåâàòî ñìåðòüþ îò îïå÷àòêè. Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Ñåðãåé Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷. |
#25
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Öèòàòà:
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] Íè ñëîâà î äèñáàêòåðèîçå. Äàæå Öèòàòà:
 Ðîññèè ñêëîíÿþòñÿ ê òîìó, ÷òî íóæíû (çà èñêëþ÷åíèåì ïðî-çàïàäíè÷åñêè íàñòðîåííûõ ñïåöèàëèñòîâ). Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
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#26
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Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
Ó íàñ ãîñïèòàëèçèðóþò ñ äèàãíîçîì äèñáàêòåðèîç, ëå÷àò òîëüêî äèñáàêòåðèîç è âûïèñûâàþò ñ çàêëþ÷åíèåì "ïðîâåäåíî ëå÷åíèå äèñáàêòåðèîçà". Èçìåíåíèÿ â ýòîì àíàëèçÿ ÿâëÿþòñÿ îñíîâàíèåì íå äëÿ ïðîáèîòèêîâ äàæå (Áîã áû ñ íèìè, â êîíöå êîíöîâ), äëÿ àíòèáèîòèêîâ, ôàãîâ, äèåò, ãîìåîïàòèè, îòìåíû ãðóäíîãî âñêàðìëèâàíèÿ, çàìåíû ñìåñè, êîíòîëüíûõ àíàëèçîâ (îöåíêà â äèíàìèêå) è ò.ä. Íà äèñáàêòåðèîç "ñïèñûâàþò" ðÿä âàæíûõ ñèìïòîìîâ (êîòîðûå íà ñàìîì äåëå ìîãóò áûòü ÀÁÊÌ, öåëèàêèåé, ëàêòàçíîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòüþ è ïðî÷) Òî åñòü - íàëèöî âñå ïðèçíàêè íîçîëîãè÷åñêîé åäèíèöû è ñîîòâåòñòâóþùåå ê íåé îòíîøåíèå ðîññèéñêèõ âðà÷åé. Äå ôàêòî, òàê ñêàçàòü. Öèòàòà:
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Òîëüêî ïîìíèòå: ôîðóì - íå çàìåíà î÷íîìó âðà÷ó, à ëå÷åíèå ïî èíòåðíåòó - ÷ðåâàòî ñìåðòüþ îò îïå÷àòêè. Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Ñåðãåé Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷. |
#27
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Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
Íà ñàìîì äåëå, íà çàïàäå - íå äóðàêè, è ðîññèÿíå - íå äóðàêè, à åäèíîãî ìíåíèÿ íåò. È ñêîðåå âñåãî, â áóäóùåì Ðîññèÿ áóäåò îðèåíòèðîâàòüñÿ íà çàïàä, à íå íàîáîðîò. Ìîæåò áûòü, è íå ñòîèò âàðèòüñÿ â êîòëå ñîáñòâåííûõ óáåæäåíèé, à ïîñìîòðåòü ÷óòü øèðå, ïî÷èòàòü èíîñòðàííóþ ëèòåðàòóðó è çàäóìàòüñÿ. Öèòàòà:
Îá îòíîøåíèè ê "áîëåçíè äèñáàêòåðèîç", ñ êîòîðîé ê íàì ãîñïèòàëèçèðóþò ïî ñêîðîé (!!!), ÿ çíàþ íå ïîíàñëûøêå. È êîãäà áîëüíûå âðûâàëèñü â êàáèíåò ê ïðîôåññîðó ñî ñëîâàìè "Ïîìîãèòå, óìèðàþ, ó ìåíÿ äèñáàêòåðèîç" - òîæå (õîòÿ áîëüíîé êàê ðàç íå âèíîâàò!). Íî åñëè ìû áóäåì ñïóñêàòüñÿ äî óðîâíÿ ìåñòå÷êîâûõ ïîëèêëèíèê, ôåëüäøåðñêèõ ïóíêòîâ è "ìåäèêîâ", ðàáîòàþùèõ òàì, òî âðà÷åáíîé äèñêóññèè òî÷íî íå ïîëó÷èòñÿ!))) Öèòàòà:
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#28
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Òîëüêî ïîìíèòå: ôîðóì - íå çàìåíà î÷íîìó âðà÷ó, à ëå÷åíèå ïî èíòåðíåòó - ÷ðåâàòî ñìåðòüþ îò îïå÷àòêè. Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Ñåðãåé Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷. |
#29
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ß âèäåëà. Åùå ðàç - ñïàñèáî
Íà ñàìîì äåëå, íàøà äèñêóññèÿ âî ìíîãîì ìíå ïîìîãëà, ÿ îáðàòèëàñü ê òàêèì íàó÷íûì èñòî÷íèêàì, êóäà áû åùå íå ñêîðî âëåçëà È ñïàñèáî ñîçäàòåëÿì ôîðóìà çà òàêîé èíôîðìàòèâíûé è, ãëàâíîå, óäîáíûé â íàâèãàöèè è ïîèñêå èíôîðìàöèè ñàéò |
#30
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Bacterial overgrowth syndrome (BOS) is a term that describes clinical manifestations that occur when the normally low number of bacteria that inhabit the stomach, duodenum, jejunum, and proximal ileum significantly increases or becomes overtaken by other pathogens.
....... Bacterial overgrowth syndrome can lead to worsening symptoms of malabsorption and diarrhea. In certain patient subgroups, bacterial overgrowth syndrome can lead to significant morbidity or death. However, exact mortality rates directly linked to bacterial overgrowth syndrome are not readily available. Patient populations at an increased risk of mortality due to bacterial overgrowth syndrome include the following: • Neonates and young infants who are already malnourished or have congenital GI abnormalities • Elderly patients with multiple medical problems and those who have underlying chronic diarrhea without known bacterial overgrowth syndrome • Patients who have undergone prior upper intestinal surgery that alters the protective mechanisms that prevent bacterial overgrowth syndrome • Patients with poor nutritional status at presentation • Patients with underlying medical conditions such as diabetes and scleroderma, who are at risk for relapse if the underlying medical condition is not corrected or managed ............... Disorders or structural abnormalities that disrupt the protective mechanisms that guard against increasing bacterial burden can lead to bacterial overgrowth syndrome. Patients with the following medical conditions are at increased risk for bacterial overgrowth syndrome: • History of upper intestinal tract surgery • Irritable bowel syndrome[4, 2] • Liver cirrhosis[4, 2] • Celiac disease[7, 8] • Immune deficiency (eg, AIDS, IGA deficiency, severe malnutrition)[4, 2] • Short bowel syndrome[2] • End stage renal disease[4] • Gastrojejunal anastomosis • Vagotomy, but not selective parietal cell vagotomy • Antral resection • Pancreatic exocrine insufficiency Abnormal small intestinal motility due to the following may result in bacterial overgrowth syndrome: • Diabetic autonomic neuropathy • Scleroderma • Pseudo-obstruction • Amyloidosis • Neurological diseases (eg, myotonic dystrophy, Parkinson disease) • Radiation enteritis[4, 2] • Crohn disease[4, 2] • Hypothyroidism Blind pouches from the following may result in bacterial overgrowth syndrome: • Side-to-side or end-to-side anastomoses • Intra-abdominal reservoirs • Duodenal or jejunal diverticula • Segmental dilatation of the ileum • Blind loop syndrome • Biliopancreatic diversion • Chagasic megacolon Abnormal bowel communication due to the following may cause bacterial overgrowth syndrome: • Gastrocolic fistulae • Jejunal-colic fistulae Partial obstruction caused by the following may result in bacterial overgrowth syndrome: • Strictures • Adhesions • Abdominal masses • Leiomyosarcoma Reduced gastric acid secretion from the following may result in bacterial overgrowth syndrome: • Achlorhydria • Vagotomy • Long-term administration of proton pump inhibitors[9] Prevalence of BOS rises with age.[4, 10] |