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Âåðíóòüñÿ   Äèñêóññèîííûé Êëóá Ðóññêîãî Ìåäèöèíñêîãî Ñåðâåðà > Ôîðóìû âðà÷åáíûõ êîíñóëüòàöèé > Êàðäèîëîãèÿ > Ôîðóì äëÿ îáùåíèÿ âðà÷åé êàðäèîëîãîâ

Îòâåò
 
Îïöèè òåìû Ïîèñê â ýòîé òåìå Îïöèè ïðîñìîòðà
  #61  
Ñòàðûé 13.03.2010, 21:58
raden raden âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Íà÷èíàþùèé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 07.11.2006
Ãîðîä: Ñàíêò- Ïåòåðáóðã
Ñîîáùåíèé: 73
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
raden ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò õîðîøóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
ïàöèåíòó áûëî 16 ëåò,çàáûë ñêàçàòü
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #62  
Ñòàðûé 13.03.2010, 21:58
Àâàòàð äëÿ tourunov
tourunov tourunov âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 14.01.2010
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 915
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 170 ðàç(à) çà 170 ñîîáùåíèé
tourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåtourunov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Òàê è ñôîðìóëèðîâàòü: ñ-ì WPW. Ïàðîêñèçìàëüíàÿ ÀÂ-ðåöèïðîêíàÿ îðòîäðîìíàÿ òàõèêàðäèÿ. Åñëè 16 ëåò è íèêàêèõ äàííûõ çà ÈÁÑ íåò - òî ïðî äåïðåññèþ ìîæíî çàáûòü.

Êîììåíòàðèè ê ñîîáùåíèþ:
dmblok îäîáðèë(à):
Gilarov îäîáðèë(à):
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #63  
Ñòàðûé 13.03.2010, 22:06
raden raden âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Íà÷èíàþùèé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 07.11.2006
Ãîðîä: Ñàíêò- Ïåòåðáóðã
Ñîîáùåíèé: 73
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
raden ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò õîðîøóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
ñïàñèáî,ýòî âñå ïîíÿòíî,äèàãíîç òàêîé ïîñòàâèëè è ïðî äåïðåññèþ çàáûëè.
Âîïðîñ ïðåæíèé, êàê â äèàãíîçå îïèñàòü àíãèíîçíûé ýïèçîä íà ôîíå òàõèêàðäèè ñ òðîïîíèíîì (-). ß áû íàçâàë ÍÑ è ïîëüçîâàëñÿ êëàññèôèêàöèåé Braunwald, ÷åì ïîëüçóåòåñü Âû?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #64  
Ñòàðûé 13.03.2010, 22:13
raden raden âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Íà÷èíàþùèé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 07.11.2006
Ãîðîä: Ñàíêò- Ïåòåðáóðã
Ñîîáùåíèé: 73
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
raden ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò õîðîøóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Äîêàçàííî
àíãèíîçíûé åñò-íî. Ïóñòü íà ïðèìåðå ñ ÏÔÏ è èøåìè÷åñêèì ïàöèåíòîì
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #65  
Ñòàðûé 15.03.2010, 09:34
chUmNick chUmNick âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 27.10.2006
Ãîðîä: Ïèòåð
Ñîîáùåíèé: 159
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 5
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 5 ðàç(à) çà 5 ñîîáùåíèé
chUmNick ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåchUmNick ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåchUmNick ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
...Åñëè 16 ëåò è íèêàêèõ äàííûõ çà ÈÁÑ íåò - òî ïðî äåïðåññèþ ìîæíî çàáûòü.
Õì...
Ò.å. åñëè òðîïîíèí (-) - òî çàáûòü, à åñëè òðîïîíèí (+) - ïîñòàâèòü ÎÈÌ?..
Ïðè÷èíà îäíà, ïàòîìåõàíèçìû îäèíàêîâûå, âñÿ ðàçíèöà ëèøü â òîì íàêîïèëîñü ëè ïîâðåæäåíèÿ äî äèàãíîñòè÷åñêîãî òèòðà Tn èëè íåò...
Íè÷åãî, à?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #66  
Ñòàðûé 15.03.2010, 11:41
raden raden âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Íà÷èíàþùèé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 07.11.2006
Ãîðîä: Ñàíêò- Ïåòåðáóðã
Ñîîáùåíèé: 73
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
raden ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò õîðîøóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ïî- ìîåìó, ñìûñë â òîì,÷òîáû îòðàçèòü â äèàãíîçå ïîâûøåíèå ïîòðåáíîñòè ìèîêàðäà â êèñëîðîäå êàê ïðè÷èíó àíãèíîçíîãî ýïèçîäà. Ó íàñ ÷àñòî ïèøóò î.êîðîíàðíàÿ íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòü, ýòî ïî- ìîåìó íå ñîâñåì òî,÷òî íóæíî.
ÍÑ IIIA (Braunwald) ãîðàçäî ëó÷øå. Âîò ÿ è õî÷ó óñëûøàòü ìíåíèå óâàæàåìûõ êîëëåã ïî ýòîìó ïîâîäó. À íå òî,÷òî ïðè WPW äèàãíîç íàäî ñòàâèòü WPW è â 16 ëåò ÈÁÑ áûâàåò ðåäêî. Ñïàñèáî
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #67  
Ñòàðûé 02.04.2010, 22:17
Àâàòàð äëÿ Alex_Bogachyev
Alex_Bogachyev Alex_Bogachyev âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Ïîñòîÿííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 13.01.2008
Ãîðîä: Îäèíöîâî
Ñîîáùåíèé: 245
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 5
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 58 ðàç(à) çà 57 ñîîáùåíèé
Alex_Bogachyev ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAlex_Bogachyev ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ïðî÷èòàë âñþ äèñêóññèþ ïî ïîâîäó ÎÈÌ vs Íåñòàáèëüíàÿ ñòåíîêàðäèÿ.
Âñå ñîãëàñèëèñü, ÷òî åñëè åñòü ïîâûøåíèå òðîïîíèíîâ âî âðåìÿ ÎÊÑ, òî ýòî èíôàðêò. Â òî âðåìÿ êàê åñòü íåêîòîðûå íþàíñû.

Îòêðûâàåì Management of Acute Coronary Syndromes (ACS) in patients presenting without persistent ST-segment elevation (ESC, 2007) è âèäèì öåëûé ñïèñîê ñîñòîÿíèé, ïðè êîòîðûõ ìîæåò áûòü ïîâûøåí óðîâåíü òðîïîíèíîâ:
Öèòàòà:
  • Severe congestive heart failure: acute and chronic
  • Aortic dissection, aortic valve disease, or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy
  • Cardiac contusion, ablation, pacing, cardioversion, or endomyocardial biopsy
  • Inflammatory diseases, e.g. myocarditis, or myocardial extension of endocarditis/pericarditis
  • Hypertensive crisis
  • Tachy- or bradyarrhythmias
  • Pulmonary embolism, severe pulmonary hypertension
  • Hypothyroidism
  • Apical ballooning syndrome
  • Chronic or acute renal dysfunction
  • Acute neurological disease, including stroke, or subarachnoid haemorrhage
  • Infiltrative diseases, e.g. amyloidosis, haemochromatosis, sarcoidosis, scleroderma
  • Drug toxicity, e.g. adriamycin, 5-fluorouracil, herceptin, snake venoms
  • Burns, if affecting .30% of body surface area
  • Rhabdomyolysis
  • Critically ill patients, especially with respiratory failure, or sepsis.
Íà ïîëíîì ñåðüåçå â íåñêîëüêèõ ïîñòàõ îáñóæäàëîñü, ÷òî åñëè áóäóò áîëåå ÷óâñòâèòåëüíûå ìåòîäû, òî ìîæíî áóäåò ñòàâèòü ÈÌ ïðè íåêðîçå 10 êàðäèîìèîöèòîâ.

×èòàåì äàëåå â òåõ æå ðåêîìåíäàöèÿõ:
Öèòàòà:
Elevation of cardiac troponins also
occurs in the setting of non-coronary-related myocardial
injury
. This reflects the sensitivity of the marker
for myocardial cell injury and should not be labelled
as false-positive test results
Injury - ïîâðåæäåíèå, à íå íåêðîç. Òî åñòü ïîâûøåíèå óðîâíÿ òðîïîíèíîâ ïî ñóòè ðåøàþùàÿ èíñòàíöèÿ, ÷òîáû îïðåäåëèòü åñòü íåêðîç èëè íåò, ïðè ýòîì ïîâûøàòüñÿ îíè ìîãóò è áåçî âñÿêîãî íåêðîçà.

 îäíîì èç ñòàöèîíàðîâ ãäå ÿ ðàáîòàë, ðåàíèìàòîëîãè, ïîëüçóÿñü òàáëè÷êîé, ïîäîáíîé âûøåïðèâåäåííîé, è ýòèì îáñòîÿòåëüñòâîì, óâåðåííî îòêàçûâàëè â ïåðåâîäå ïàöèåíòîâ ñ àòèïè÷íûì áîëåâûì ñèíäðîìîì, íåâíÿòíîé ÝÊà è ïîëîæèòåëüíîé êà÷åñòâåííîé ðåàêöèåé íà òðîïîíèíû. Èíîãäà ïîñëå ýòîãî âîçíèêàëà õàðàêòåðíàÿ äèíàìèêà ÝÊà è òîãäà òîëüêî ïàöèåíò ïåðåìåùàëñÿ â ðåàíèìàöèþ.

È äàëåå:
Öèòàòà:
The diagnostic cut-off for MI using cardiac troponins should be based on the 99th percentile of levels among healthy controls as recommended by the Consensus committee. Acceptable
imprecision (coefficient of variation) at the 99th percentile
for each assay should be 10%. Each individual laboratory
should regularly assess the range of reference values in
their specific setting.
Òî åñòü âñ¸-òàêè (äàæå çàáûâ îáî âñåõ îñòàëüíûõ çàáîëåâàíèÿõ è ñîñòîÿíèÿõ), ÷òîáû ïîñòàâèòü ÎÈÌ íåîáõîäèìî ïîâûøåíèå òðîïîíèíîâ âûøå íåêîåãî óðîâíÿ. Òî æå ñàìîå êñòàòè ÷åòêî ïðîïèñàíî â Óíèâåðñàëüíîì îïðåäåëåíèè ÈÌ (ASA, AHA, ESC, 2007).

Äà, â òîì æå ãàéäëàéíå åñòü ñëåäóþùèé ïàññàæ:
Öèòàòà:
It is believed that the elevation of cardiac troponins
reflects irreversible myocardial cellular necrosis (íåîáðàòèìûé íåêðîç êàðäèîìèîöèòîâ) typically
resulting from distal embolization of platelet-rich thrombi
from the site of a ruptured plaque.
In the setting of myocardial ischaemia (chest pain,
ST-segment changes) troponin elevation has to be labelled
as MI
according to the ESC/ACC/AHA.
À âîò óæå óïîìèíàâøååñÿ îïðåäåëåíèå ÎÈÌ (ASA, AHA, ESC, 2007):
Öèòàòà:
The term myocardial infarction should be used when there is evidence of myocardial necrosis(äîêàçàòåëüñòâà íåêðîçà ìèîêàðäà) in a clinical setting consistent with myocardial ischaemia (â êëèíè÷åñêîé ñèòóàöèè, àññîöèèðîâàííîé (ñîãëàñóþùåéñÿ) ñ èøåìèåé ìèîêàðäà). Under these conditions any one of the following criteria meets the diagnosis for myocardial infarction:
• Detection of rise and/or fall of cardiac biomarkers (preferably troponin) with at least one value above the 99th percentile of the upper reference limit (URL) together with evidence of myocardial ischaemia with at least one of the following:
• Symptoms of ischaemia;
• ECG changes indicative of new ischaemia (new ST-T changes or new left bundle branch block [LBBB]);
• Development of pathological Q waves in the ECG;
• Imaging evidence of new loss of viable myocardium or new regional wall motion abnormality.
Òî åñòü âî âðåìÿ ÎÊÑ (ïðèçíàêàõ èøåìèè ìèîêàðäà) ëþáîå ïîâûøåíèå êàðäèîôåðìåíòîâ óêàçûâàåò íà íåêðîç, íî â äðóãèõ êëèíè÷åñêèõ ñèòóàöèÿõ ìîæåò îçíà÷àòü è ïðîñòî ïîâðåæäåíèå êàðäèîìèîöèòîâ.
Òàê ÷òî ñïîðíûå ñèòóàöèè ìîãóò áûòü è âîçíèêàþò
È chest pain ðàçíàÿ áûâàåò è ñîìíèòåëüíûå èçìåíåíèÿ ÝÊÃ è ò.ä. è ò.ï.
Òî åñòü èñïîëüçóÿ è îïèðàÿñü íà ýòî îïðåäåëåíèå, âñå ìû êîíå÷íî ïðîäîëæàåì äóìàòü è àíàëèçèðîâàòü êàæäóþ êîíêðåòíóþ ñèòóàöèþ.

Êñòàòè, èíòåðåñíî, êòî-íèáóäü áûë â ëàáîðàòîðèè è óçíàâàë, êàê è íà îñíîâàíèè ÷åãî îòêàëèáðîâàíû êà÷åñòâåííûå è êîëè÷åñòâåííûå àíàëèçàòîðû íà òðîïîíèíû?  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå, óðîâåíü òðîïîíèíîâ ïðè íåêðîçå 10 êàðäèîìèîöèòîâ âðÿä ëè áóäåò ñòàòèñòè÷åñêè äîñòîâåðíî îòëè÷àòüñÿ îò óðîâíÿ òðîïîíèíîâ ó çäîðîâûõ ëþäåé.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #68  
Ñòàðûé 29.06.2015, 22:14
Ahmadkhon Ahmadkhon âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2015
Ãîðîä: Yvas
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1
Ahmadkhon *
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Gilarov Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
Ôîðìàëüíî - áîëüøå 30 äíåé ïîñëå ÈÌ - ÏÈÊÑ. Ò. î. â Âàøåì ñëó÷àå: ÈÁÑ: ñòåíîêàðäèÿ íàïðÿæåíèÿ III ÔÊ. Ïîñòèíôàðêòíûé êàðäèîñêëåðîç. Àòåðîñêëåðîç àîðòû, êîðîíàðíûõ àðåòåðèé. Åñòü, ïðàâäà, îäíî íî... Åñëè ÷åðåç 34 äíÿ ó ïàöèåíòà ñîõðàíÿåòñÿ ñòåíîêàðäèÿ IIIÔÊ íà ôîíå òåðàïèè, òî ñ íåé óæå ñòîèëî ÷òî-ëèáî ñäåëàòü èíâàçèâíîå, èáî âñåãî 4 äíÿ íàçàä îíà (ñòåíîêàðäèÿ) áûëà ðàííÿÿ ïîñòèíôàðêòíàÿ.
Îïÿòü æå ôîðìàëüíî, ðåöèäèâèðóþùèé - â ïðåäåëàõ 30 äíåé, ïîâòîðíûé - â áîëüøèå ñðîêè.
Ìîæíî âñòðå÷íûé âîïðîñ: ÷åì âûçâàí Âàø èíòåðåñ?  ðåàëüíîé ïðàêòèêå òàêèå êîëëèçèè, áîëüøå ïðàâîâîãî, ÷åì ìåäèöèíñêîãî òîëêà âîçíèêàþò íå ÷àñòî.
Êàê ïðâèëüíî ôîðìóëèðîâàòü äèàãíîç òàêîé. ÈÁÑ :Îñòðûé òðàíñìóðàëüíûé èíôàðêò ìèîêàðäà çàäíå äèôðàãìàëüíîé îáëàñòè ëåâîãî æåëóäî÷êà îò 25.06.2015 èëè ÈÁÑ: Èíôàðêò ìèîêàðäà òðàíñìóðàëüíûé îò 25.06.2016. Îñòðàÿ ñòàäèÿ
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
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