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Îïöèè òåìû Ïîèñê â ýòîé òåìå Îïöèè ïðîñìîòðà
  #31  
Ñòàðûé 06.08.2003, 07:45
E.E. Studentsov E.E. Studentsov âíå ôîðóìà
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Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2003
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Ñîîáùåíèé: 834
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Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 6 ðàç(à) çà 4 ñîîáùåíèé
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Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè!

ß î÷åíü ðàä, ÷òî íà ôîðóìå íå ãîâîðèëîñü î âîçìîæíîñòè èçëå÷åíèÿ HIV ñ ïîìîùüþ îçîíîòåðàïèè. Íà ïðîñòîðàõ èíòåðíåòà òàêèõ çàÿâëåíèé íåèñ÷èñëèìîå ìíîæåñòâî, âîò îäíî èç íèõ:

Major Breakthrough Has Been Found For HEP C, AIDS, Herpes and many other Diseases. A company called Medizone International (Stock Quote MZEI) has found an effective treatment for many diseases using something so simple and cheap to produce called ozone, (03). If you or someone you know has HEP.C or HIV, you can now get treatment to reduce your virual loads right down to zero. If you are just interested in investing in the company, then NOW is the time to get in. As soon as the world finds out about this company, the stock has the potential to be trading much, much higher.
( [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] )
Ññûëêó íà Medizone Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷ äàë â ñâîåì ñîîáùåíèè: “À âåäü çà ïîñëåäíèå ãîäû áûëî íåìàëî ÷èñòî êëèíè÷åñêèõ Åâðîïåéñêèõ, Ðîññèéñêèõ, Êóáèíñêèõ ðàáîò. È äàæå Ñåâåðíîé Àìåðèêè: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] “

Òî åñòü åäèíñòâà â ðÿäàõ îçîíîòåðàïåâòîâ íåò.  ñâÿçè ñ ýòèì ïåðâûé âîïðîñ ê Âàì, óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷, êàê ê ýêñïåðòó ïî îçîíîòåðàïèè íà ýòîì ôîðóìå: êàê áîëüíîìó îòëè÷èòü ÷åñòíûõ ñòîðîííèêîâ îçîíîòåðïèè, ïðîïîâåäóþùèõ íàó÷íûé ïîäõîä ê ìåòîäó è óáåæäåííûõ â åãî ýôôåêòèâíîñòè, îò ïðîñòî îòêðîâåííûõ ìîøåííèêîâ?

Ïîä íàó÷íûì ïîäõîäîì ÿ èìåþ ââèäó èñïîëüçîâàíèå òåîðèè, îïèñàííîé â ñòàòüÿõ V.Bocci (êîòîðûõ äîâîëüíî ìíîãî), îñíîâàííîé íà ýìïèðè÷åñêîì îïûòå íåìåöêèõ öåëèòåëåé, íàáëþäàâøèõ áëàãîòâîðíîå âîçäåéñòâèå îçîíà, è îïûòàõ ñàìîãî Bocci (Bocci V. Biological and clinical effects of ozone. Has ozone therapy a future in medicine? Br J Biomed Sci. 1999;56(4):270-9. Review.)
 ýòîé è íåñêîëüêèõ äðóãèõ ðàáîòàõ V.Bocci îïèñûâàåò ãèïîòåòè÷åñêèå ìåõàíèçìû âîçäåéñòâèÿ îçîíà íà èìóííóþ ñèñòåìó, àíòèãèïîêñè÷åñêîãî äåéñòâèÿ, èíäóöèðîâàíèÿ ãèïåðýêñïðåññèè àíòèîêñèäàíòíûõ ýíçèìîâ è ò.ä. è ò.ï.
Îäíàêî, íè â îäíîé ðàáîòå íå äàåòñÿ ññûëîê íà ðàáîòû èç äðóãèõ ëàáîðàòîðèé, ïîäòâåðæäàþùèõ èõ.
Ê ïðèìåðó, ïî ïîâîäó âîçäåéñòâèÿ íà èìóííóþ ñèñòåìó â ñòàòüå 1999-ãî ãîäà V.Bocci ïðèâîäèò ññûëêó íà ñâîþ æå ðàáîòó 1996-ãî ãîäà. Äëÿ àâòîðîâ æå îïóáëèêîâàííûõ êëèíè÷åñêèõ ðàáîò èññëåäîâàíèÿ Bocci ïîõîæå ÿâëÿþòñÿ åäèíñòâåííûì òåîðåòè÷åñêèì îáîñíîâàíèåì.
 ñâÿçè ñ ýòèì - âòîðîé âîïðîñ: ïî÷åìó àêàäåìè÷åñêèå (íå êëèíè÷åñêèå) ðàáîòû ïî èçó÷åíèþ ìåõàíèçìîâ ëå÷åáíîãî âîçäåéñòâèÿ îçîíà, ïîìèìî ðàáîò Bocci íèãäå íå îïóáëèêîâàíû (ðàáîòû, ÍÀÏÐßÌÓÞ íàïðàâëåííûå íà ïîäòâåðæäåíèå ãèïîòåç Bocci.) Õî÷åòñÿ âåðèòü, ÷òî îíè åñòü, è ìíå èõ ïðîñòî íå íàéòè, èñïîëüçóÿ “author citation index”. Ñóùåñòâóþò ëè êàêèå-òî äðóãèå òåîðèè, è ãäå îíè îïóáëèêîâàíû? Èëè ïî ïðåæíåìó èñïîëüçóåòñÿ òåîðèÿ íåìåöêèõ öåëèòåëåé "transferring a vital energy to the blood ”. Äàâàéòå òîëüêî äîãîâîðèìñÿ, ÷òî ðåôåðàòû ñüåçäà îçîíîòåðàïåâòîâ íè Âû íè ÿ êàê àðãóìåíò ïðèâîäèòü íå áóäåòå. Ïîâòîðþñü, ÷òî ðàáîòû äîëæíû áûòü íå êëèíè÷åñêèìè, à àêàäåìè÷åñêèìè.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ êëèíè÷åñêèõ ðàáîò. Ñî ìíîãèìè ðàáîòàìè, ïðîöèòèðîâàííûìè íà ôîðóìå, è æóðíàëüíûìè ïóáëèêàöèÿìè ÿ îçíàêîìèëñÿ. Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, ìíå ïðèõîäèòñÿ ðàçäåëèòü ìíåíèå ìíîãèõ äðóãèõ Âàøèõ îïïîíåíòîâ. Ðàáîòû, ìÿãêî ãîâîðÿ, èìåþò ñåðüåçíûå ïîãðåøíîñòè â äèçàéíå, ìåòîäå è ñòàòèñòè÷åñêîé îáðàáîòêå. Ýòè ïîãðåøíîñòè íåîäíîêðàòíî îáñóæäàëèñü ïðîôåññîðîì Ìåëüíè÷åíêî, äîêòîðîì Æèâîâûì è äðóãèìè ó÷àñòíèêàìè ôîðóìà, ïîýòîìó ïîâòîðÿòü íå èìååò ñìûñëà. Ñ ìîåé òî÷êè çðåíèÿ ýòè ðàáîòû íè÷åãî íå äîêàçûâàþò, è íàïðàâëåíû ñêîðåå íà äèñêðåäèòàöèþ ñàìîé èäåè. Íåâîëüíî âîçíèêàåò ìûñëü - íå ñäåëàíî ëè ýòî ñïåöèàëüíî äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ýòè ðàáîòû âñåðüåç íèêåì íå âîñïðèíèìàëèñü, è îçîíîòåðàïèÿ îñòàâàëàñü â âåäåíèè àëüòåðíàòèâíîé ìåäèöèíû, ÷òîáû àëüòåðíàòèâíûå öåëèòåëè íå ïîòåðÿëè èñòî÷íèê äîõîäà? Ýòî âñåãî ëèøü ñóáüåêòèâíîå âïå÷àòëåíèå. Íå âîñïðèíèìàéòå ýòî êàê îáâèíåíèå. Ñ óäîâîëüñòâèåì âûñëóøàþ Âàøe ìíåíèå, Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷, î ïðè÷èíàõ íåïðîôåññèîíàëèçìà ýòèõ ðàáîò.

 ïîñëåäíåå âðåìÿ, îäíàêî, ïîÿâèëîñü íåñêîëüêî ðàáîò, ïîçâîëÿþùèõ âûäåëèòü òðåòüþ ãðóïïó ïðåâåðæåíöåâ îçîíîòåðàïèè (ïîìèìî òåõ, êòî ñ÷èòàåò ìåòîäèêó óæå äîêàçàííîé äëÿ øèðîêîãî êëèíè÷åñêîãî âíåäðåíèÿ, è ïðîñòî øàðëàòàíîâ). Ýòè èññëåäîâàòåëè íå ññûëàþòñÿ íà òåîðåòè÷åñêèå ïîñòóëàòû Bocci, à î ïðåäûäóùèõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ ãîâîðÿò ñëåäóþùåå : "The medical application of ozone is widely practiced in several countries in the world, such as Germany, Russia and Cuba. It is administered by various routes… for many different indications… As a form of alternative medicine, ozone therapy has many of the drawbacks of nonconventional therapies, such as reliance on anecdotes and testimonials, poorly documented studies and faulty methodologies rather than multicentral, prospective, randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials that are required for new drug approval and for "evidence-based medicine"" (Zimran et. al. "Effective of Ozon on Red Blood Cell enzymes and intermidiates", ACTA Hematolol. 1999; 102; 148-151)
Èëè:
"We relize that O3-AHT is a controversial modality that needs better scientific support... the use of ozonotherapy in select serious cases may be warranted." Biedunkiewits,B. et al. "Ozonotherapy in a dialyzed patient with calcific uremic arteriolopathy" Kidney Int. 2003 Jul;64(1):367-8
Î÷åâèäíî, ýòè ðàáîòû íàïèñàíû â ñâÿçè ñî ñëåäóþùèì îáñòîÿòåëüñòâîì. Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî NIH (National Institute of Health of USA) èíèöèèðîâàë ñïåöèàëüíóþ ïðîãðàììó â ïîääåðæêó èññëåäîâàíèé â àëüòåðíàòèâíîé ìåäèöèíå (JAMA 1998; 280: 1616-1617). À äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ïîëó÷èòü äåíüãè ïî ýòîé ïðîãðàììå, íóæíî èìåòü îïóáëèêîâàííûå ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûå äàííûå, âûñòðîèòü ãèïîòåçó, ðàçðàáîòàòü ìåòîäû è ïîäðîáíî îïèñàòü, êàê ðåçóëüòàò áóäåò èíòåðïðåòèðîâàòüñÿ. Òåîðèè V. Bocci è áîëüøèíñòâî ïðîâåäåííûõ îïûòîâ ñ îçîíîì îêàçûâàþòñÿ çäåñü íåïðèìåíèìûìè. À äåíüãè íà èññëåäîâàíèÿ NIH ìîæåò äàòü íåìàëûå. Cóäüáa
âñåõ òðåõ íàïðàâëåíèé îçîíîòåðàïèè â ñëó÷àå, åñëè äåíüãè áóäóò êåì-òî ïîëó÷åíû, ñîîòâåòñòâóþùàÿ ðàáîòà ïðîâåäåíà è ðåçóëüòàòû îïóáëèêîâàíû, çíà÷èòåëüíî èçìåíèòñÿ. Âàøå ìíåíèå, Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷?
Êñòàòè, ñàì Bocci â ïîñëåäíèõ ñòàòüÿõ ñòàðàåòñÿ ïðèìêíóòü ê òðåòüåé ãðóïïå, ïðèçíàâàÿ, ÷òî ðàáîò, îöåíèâàþùèõ ýôôåêòèâíîñòü è áåçîïàñíîñòü ìåòîäà, à òàê æå èçó÷àþùèõ ìåõàíèçìû âîçäåéñòâèÿ îçîíà, äåéñòâèòåëüíî íåäîñòàòî÷íî.
Bîò ìíåíèå Bocci, âûñêàçàííîå â 1998 ãîäó (Velio Bocci, "Is Ozone Therapy Terapeutic" Prospectives of Biology and Medicine, 42, 1 . Autumn 1998):
"It appears important to emphasize at once that ozone therapy ought to be used ONLY when orthodox medicine is unable to offer a valid treatment. Moreover, some practical reservations remain, and I am not all sure that ozone therapy will be able to acquire a stable position in the medical armamentarium until appropriate investigations are carried out".
 ðàáîòå "Has ozone therapy a future in medicine?" , Br. J. Biomed. Sci. 1999, Bocci ïèøåò: "...attention should be concentrated on the following points: ...evaluation of any possible long term toxicity,...randomized, double-blind clinical studies using either O2-O3 or O3 alone versus conventional treatments, with assessment of long term follow up..."
  #32  
Ñòàðûé 06.08.2003, 07:46
E.E. Studentsov E.E. Studentsov âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2003
Ãîðîä: New York, USA
Ñîîáùåíèé: 834
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 6 ðàç(à) çà 4 ñîîáùåíèé
E.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Î òîêñè÷íîñòè. Òîêñè÷åñêîå âîçäåéñòâèå îçîíà è åãî ìåòàáîëèòîâ õîðîøî èçâåñòíî è îïèñàíî â ëèòåðàòóðå. Ëåãî÷íûå è âíåë¸ãî÷íûå ïðîÿâëåíèÿ ýòîé òîêñè÷íîñòè (âîçäåéñòâèå íà ÖÍÑ, êðîâåòâîðíóþ, ýíäîêðèííóþ, ðåïðîäóêòèâíóþ è äð. ñèñòåìû) äîñòàòî÷íî ïîäðîáíî îïèñàíû, íàïðèìåð â ýòîé ðàáîòå: Mehlman MA, Borek C. Toxicity and biochemical mechanisms of ozone. Environ Res. 1987 Feb;42(1):36-53.
ß ñîãëàñåí, ÷òî òîêñè÷íîñòü çàâèñèò îò äîçû è ïóòåé ââåäåíèÿ.
Ñòàòüè ïî òîêñèêîëîãèè îçîíà ðàñòâîðåííîãî â ïëàçìå (O3-AHT) èëè ôèç. ðàñòâîðå ïî÷åìó-òî îïÿòü ïðèíàäëåæàò òîëüêî îäíîìó àâòîðó - V.Bocci:
Bocci V, Valacchi G, Corradeschi F, Aldinucci C, Silvestri S, Paccagnini E, Gerli R.
Studies on the biological effects of ozone: 7. Generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) after exposure of human blood to ozone.
J Biol Regul Homeost Agents. 1998 Jul-Sep;12(3):67-75.

Bocci V, Valacchi G, Corradeschi F, Fanetti G. Studies on the biological effects of ozone: 8. Effects on the total antioxidant status and on interleukin-8 production.
Mediators Inflamm. 1998;7(5):313-7.
è äðóãèå.

Êñòàòè, ñàì Bocci íå îòðèöàåò ìèíèìàëüíûé ãåìîëèç, à òàê æå âîçäåéñòâèå íà òðîìáîöèòû: "The minimal hemolysis supports this idea but as far as platelets are concerned, we must mention that they tend to aggregate in heparinized blood, even when it is exposed to an O3 concentration of 40 micrograms/ml."
Bocci ïîñòóëèðóåò äîñòàòî÷íóþ àíòèîêñèäàíòíóþ ñïîñîáíîñòü êðîâè äëÿ ïðàêòè÷åñêè ïîëíîé íåéòðàëèçàöèè òîêñè÷åñêèõ ñâîéñòâ îçîíà. Îäíàêî, êðîìå íåãî, ýòî, ïî÷åìó-òî íèêòî íå äîêàçûâàåò.
Åñòü ëè àêàäåìè÷åñêèå ðàáîòû äðóãèõ àâòîðîâ, äîêàçûâàþùèõ ïîëíîå îòñóòñòâèå òîêñè÷íîñòè ? Îïÿòü æå, íå â ñàìèçäàòîâñêèõ ñáîðíèêàõ è íå â ñáîðíèêàõ ðåôåðàòîâ ñúåçäà, à â íîðìàëüíûõ æóðíàëàõ.
Âû ó÷åíûé è çíàåòå, ïî êàêèì êàíîíàì ðàçâèâàåòñÿ íàóêà. Íàáëþäåíèé îäíîãî ó÷åíîãî íèêîãäà íå äîñòàòî÷íî äëÿ ïîäòâåðæäåíèÿ òåîðèè, ò. ê ýêñïåðèìåíòû äîëæíû áûòü âîñïðîèâîäèìûìè.



Îá îñëîæíåíèÿõ:

Gabriel, C. et al "Transmission of Hepatitis C by Ozone Enrichment of Autologous Blood," Lancet, 1996;347:541j

Daschner FD. " Hepatitis C and human immunodeficiency virus infection following ozone autohaemotherapy."
Eur J Clin Microbiol Infect Dis. 1997 Aug;16(8):620.

Frankum B, Katelaris C "Ozone Therapy in Aids - truly innocuous?" The Medical Journal of Australia, Vol 159 4 October 1993. Ýòà ñòàòüÿ îïèñûâàåò ñëó÷àé ïàíöèòîïåíèè ó ïàöèåíòà, ïðîøåäøåãî ïåðåä ïîñòóïëåíèåì â ãîñïèòàëü 5 êóðñîâ îçîíîòåðàïèè â ÷àñòíîì îôèñå.

Ñàì V.Bocci ó áîëüøèíñòâà ïàöèåíòîâ, ïîëó÷àâøèõ îçîíîòåðàïèþ, íàáëþäàë ðåçêîå ïîâûøåíèå íàñòðîåíèÿ è ýéôîðèþ, îáúÿñíèòü ïðè÷èíó êîòîðûõ îí íå ñìîã, a ëèøü ïðèâåë ãèïîòåòè÷åñêèå ñîîáðàæåíèÿ îá èçìeíåíèè "ãîðìîíàëüíîãî ôîíà" (V.Bocci "Ozone as Bioregulator. Pharmacology and toxicology of Ozonetherapy today" Journal of Biological Regulators and Homeostatic Agents" 1996, Vol.10)

Îïèñàí è êóðüåçíûé ñëó÷àé:
Ìayer C et al "Paranoid gallucinatory psychoses in an HIV infected patient on ozone therapy" Nervenarzt.1991 62(3):194-7

Âîïðîñ ê Âëàäèìèðó ßêîâëåâè÷ó, êàê ê ýêñïåðòó: ñ êàêèìè åùå îñëîæíåíèÿìè Âû âñòðå÷àëèñü â ñâîåé ïðàêòèêå?


Òåïåðü î ìóòàãåííîñòè îçîíà. Î òîì, ÷òî îçîí ÿâëÿåòñÿ ìóòàãåíîì è êàíöåðîãåíîì , âñåì èçâåñòíî. Íå îòðèöàåò ýòîãî è V.Bocci. Â ñâîåé ðàáîòå "Ozone as Bioregulator. Pharmacology and Toxicology of Ozonetherapy today" (Journal of Biological Regulators and Homeostatic Agents" 1996, Vol.10) îí ïðîâîäèò îáçîð ëèòåðàòóðû äî 1996 ãîäà è ïðèõîäèò ê âûâîäó: “trying to sum up this important topic, it appears, that the lack of natural antioxidants is critical in allowing mutagenic changes in cells exposed to ozone in vitro for a length of time. Conversely, lymphocytes isolated from blood, exposed to ozone ex vivo for a brief time before reinfusion have not shown any genetic damage… Yes, ozone is potentially mutagenic, but so far experimental evidence has not shown any risk with regard to ozonated blood.”

 íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ òàêèå ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíûå äîêàçàòåëüñòâà óæå ñóùåñòâóþò.
 ñâîåé ðàáîòå Dr. Folsinski çàðåãèñòðèðîâàë çíà÷èòåëüíîå óâåëè÷åíèå 8-îêñî-2'-äåîêñèãóàíîçèíà (8-oxo-dG) â ÄÍÊ, âûäåëåííîé èç ëèìôîöèòîâ áîëüíûõ ïðîõîäèâøèõ êóðñ îçîíîòåðàïèè.
[Äëÿ íå áèîõèìèêîâ ñîîáùó: 8-îõî-dG - ìîäèôèöèðîâàííoe îñíîâàíèå, ÿâëÿþùååñÿ äîêàçàííûì ìàðêåðîì êàíöåðîãåíåçà. Ðàáîò ìíîãî, ïðèâîæó ëèøü îäíó ññûëêó: Floyd R.A. "The role of 8-hydroxyguanine in cancerogenesis" Cancerogenesis, 1990, 11 1497-50.  ÷àñíîñòè ýòîò ìàðêåð ïîâûøàåòñÿ ïðè ëåéêåìèè.]
Àâòîðû ñòàòüè î÷åíü îáåñïîêîåíû äàííûì íàáëþäåíèåì, íî çàìå÷àþò, ÷òî òàê êàê îçîíîòåðàïèÿ â àëüòåðíàòèâíîé ìåäèöèíå ïðèìåíÿåòñÿ ÒÎËÜÊÎ äëÿ áåçíàäåæíûõ áîëüíûõ, ýòèì ôàêòîì â èñêëþ÷èòåëüíûõ ñëó÷àÿõ ìîæíî ïðåíåáðå÷ü (Foksinski et al. "Evaluation of 8-oxodeoxyguanosine, typical oxidative DNA damage, in lymphocytes of ozone-treated arteriosclerotic patients" Mutation Research 438(1999)23-27)

Âîïðîñ ê Âëàäèìèðó ßêîâëåâè÷ó: Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ÷òî áîëüíûå â ïðèâîäèìûõ Âàìè ðàáîòàõ áûëè áåçíàäåæíû? Ìîæåò áûòü, ñóùåñòâóþò ðàáîòû, îïðîâåðãàþùèå ðàáîòó äîêòîðà Foksinski?


Ó÷èòûâàÿ âûøåñêàçàííîå, ÿ íå ìîãó ñîãëàñèòñÿ, ÷òî îçîíîòåðàïèÿ ìîæåò â íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ èñïîëüçîâàòüñÿ â ìåäèöèíñêèõ ó÷ðåæäåíèÿõ êàê ëå÷åáíàÿ ïðîöåäóðà. Ïîýòîìó, ñâîå ïåðâîå ñîîáùåíèå â ýòîé äèñêóññèè ïàñêâèëåì íå ñ÷èòàþ. Íà ýòîì ðàçðåøèòå îòêëàíÿòñÿ, òàê êàê íå èìåþ âîçìîæíîñòè ïîñâÿòèòü ñêîëüêî íèáóäü áîëüøå âðåìåíè îçîíîòåðàïèè. Õîòÿ, ñ èíòåðåñîì ïðî÷èòàþ îòâåòû ìîäåðàòîðà.

Ñ óâàæåíèåì
Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷ Ñòóäåíöîâ, MD
Albert Einstein College of Medicine

P.S.Ïðîòèâîïîæàðíàÿ áåçîïàñíîñòü áûëà óïîìÿíóòà íåñëó÷àéíî
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

Precautions

Patients interested in oxygen/ozone therapies must consult with a physician before receiving treatment. Hyperbaric oxygen treatment should not be given to patients with untreated pneumothorax, a condition in which air or gas is present in the cavity surrounding the lungs. Patients with a history of pneumothorax, chest surgery, emphysema, middle ear surgery, uncontrolled high fevers, upper respitory infections, seizures, or disorders of the red blood cells are not suitable candidates for oxygen/ozone therapy. In addition, patients should be aware that oxygen is highly flammable. If treatments are administered incorrectly or by an unskilled person, there is a risk of fire.
  #33  
Ñòàðûé 06.08.2003, 11:08
Zhivov Zhivov âíå ôîðóìà
Âåòåðàí ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 20.08.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,792
Zhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Åâãåíèé,
Ñïàñèáî çà âïîëíå äîñòîéíóþ ýïèòàôèþ îçîíîòåðàïèè. ß, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, áûë íå â ñîñòîÿíèè ïîòðàòèòü ñòîëüêî âðåìåíè êàê Âû (âîñõèùàþñü) íà òî, ÷òîáû çàíÿòüñÿ àêàäåìè÷åñêîé (basic science) ÷àñòüþ íåäîêàçàííîñòè ñìûñëà è ýôôåêòèâíîñòè ýòîãî ìåòîäà. Äà ÿ è íå ìîãó ñðàâíèòü Âàøó basic science ïîäãîòîâêó ñ ìîåé, ÿ âñåãî ëèøü óðîëîã. Îäíàêî ÿ óæå íåîäíîêðàòíî ïîä÷åðêèâàë, ÷òî â ìîåé ñïåöèàëüíîñòè (à ÿ ñëåæó çà åå ðàçâèòèåì ïðàêòè÷åñêè ïî âñåì íàïðàâëåíèÿì èìåÿ âîçìîæíîñòü ïîëó÷àòü ëó÷øèå åâðîïåéñêèå è àìåðèêàíñêèå ðåôåðèðóåìûå æóðíàëû ïî óðîëîãèè, åæåãîäíî ïðèîáðåòàòü âñå èíòåðåñóþùèå ìåíÿ êíèæêè è ò.ä.) ÎÒ íå ôèãóðèðóåò íèãäå è íèâ êàêîì âèäå äàæå â êà÷åñòâå êåì-ëèáî èçó÷àåìîãî íà ñåðüåçíîì óðîâíå ìåòîäà (äëÿ Âëàäèìèðà ßêîâëåâè÷à ïîä÷åðêèâàþ, ÿ ãîâîðþ òîëüêî îá óðîëîãè÷åñêîé ïåðèîäèêå è ëèòåðàòóðå), íå ãîâîðÿ óæå êàê íåêàÿ êëèíè÷åñêàÿ ðåàëüíîñòü. Æåëàÿ òàêæå çàêîí÷èòü áåñêîíå÷íûå äåáàòû íà òåìó ÎÒ, õî÷ó åùå ðàç îáðàòèòü âíèìàíèå Âëàäèìèðà ßêîâëåâè÷à íà òî, ÷òî êëèíè÷öèñòà (íå æóëèêà îò ìåäèöèíû è ìàëîîáðàçîâàííîãî ïðàêòèêà, êîèõ â Ðîññèè, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, íå ìàëî) ìîæåò èíòåðåñîâàòü ìåòîä ëå÷åíèÿ òîëüêî ñ äîêàçàííîé íàäëåæàùèì îáðàçîì ýôôåêòèâíîñòüþ è áåçîïàñíîñòüþ. Åñëè íå òî, íè äðóãîå íå î÷åâèäíî ìåòîä èíòåðåñåí ìîæåò áûòü òîëüêî â êà÷åñòâå ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíîãî. Ó ìåíÿ íå áûëî áû âîïðîñîâ ê Âëàäèìèðó ßêîâëåâè÷ó, åñëè áû îí ïîçèöèîíèðîâàëñÿ êàê ýêñïåðèìåíòàòîð. Íî âåäü îí è ïîêóïàòåëè ïðîèçâîäèìîãî èì îáîðóäîâàíèÿ ïðåäñòàâëÿþò ÎÒ êàê íåêèé ðåàëüíî ñóùåñòâóþùèé ìåòîä ëå÷åíèÿ. È êàê òàê ìîæíî ãîâîðèòü î ìåòîäå, êîòîðûé íå âõîäèò â ñòàíäàðòû ëå÷åíèÿ íè îäíîãî èç çàáîëåâàíèé ÷åëîâåêà? Ïðèìåíÿòü òàêîé ìåòîä â ìåäèöèíå áåç ñîîòâåñòâóþùèõ þðèäè÷åñêèõ "îáñòàâîê" ïðîñòî áåçíðàâñòâåííî. ß äóìàþ ÷òî íà ýòîì ïðîñòðàííûå äèñêóññèè ìîæíî çàêàí÷èâàòü. Çàìå÷ó òîëüêî, ÷òî ñ÷èòàþ ïðîôåññèîíàëüíûì äîëãîì ëþáîãî âðà÷à ñâÿ÷åñêèì îáðàçîì íå äîïóñêàòü áåçíðàâñòâåííûõ è ïîðîé æåñòîêèõ ýêñïåðèìåíòîâ íàä íè÷åãî íå ïîäîçðåâàþùèìè ïàöèåíòàìè. Âñåì ñïàñèáî.
  #34  
Ñòàðûé 06.08.2003, 21:01
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìûé E.E. Studentsov!
Ñïàñèáî çà ïðîäåëàííûé ïîèñê. Ïîñòàðàþñü, ïî âîçìîæíîñòè, îòâåòèòü íà Âàøè âîïðîñû.
Íî ñíà÷àëà î ìîåé ðåàêöèè íà Âàøå ïåðâîå ñîîáùåíèå.  ñâîåì ñîîáùåíèè, Âû ïðåäëàãàåòå: «Äàâàéòå òîëüêî äîãîâîðèìñÿ, ÷òî ðåôåðàòû ñúåçäà îçîíîòåðàïåâòîâ….».
ß ñî ñâîåé ñòîðîíû òàêæå ïðåäëàãàþ, ÷òî äàâàéòå äîãîâîðèìñÿ, ÷òî íåïîäãîòîâëåííîñòü âðà÷åé, ïðàêòèêóþùèõ òó èëè èíóþ òåðàïèþ (â ÷àñòíîñòè, ÎÒ), íåñîâåðøåííîå îáîðóäîâàíèå øòàìïóåìîå, íåêîòîðûìè ïðîèçâîäèòåëÿìè è àãðåññèâíàÿ, áåçãðàìîòíàÿ êîììåð÷åñêàÿ ðåêëàìà ýòî îäíî, à îáúåêòèâíûå âîçìîæíîñòè, ìåõàíèçìû òåðàïèè – äðóãîå. À òàê, ê ïðèìåðó, ñàìûõ, ÷òî íè íà åñòü îðòîäîêñàëüíûõ âðà÷åé, êàê â Ðîññèè, òàê è â Àìåðèêå, ïðîïèñûâàþùèõ, íà âñÿêèé ñëó÷àé, «ñàìûå äîêàçàííûå» àíòèáèîòèêè ïðè âèðóñíûõ çàáîëåâàíèÿõ, èñõîäÿ èç ïðèíÿòîé íà ôîðóìå òåðìèíîëîãèè, ìîæíî ñ ïîëíûì ïðàâîì ïðè÷èñëèòü ê ØÀÐËÀÒÀÍÀÌ.
Âòîðîå, ïðè ïîäáîðå ìàòåðèàëà, ïî âîçìîæíîñòè, ñòàðàòüñÿ áûòü õîòÿ áû ÷óòî÷êó ìåíåå òåíäåíöèîçíûì. À òî äåëî äîõîäèò, ïðÿìî äî àíåêäîòè÷åñêèõ ïàðàëëåëåé.
Ê ïðèìåðó, êèñëîðîäà, êîòîðûé òàê õîðîøî ïîääåðæèâàåò ãîðåíèå, áîëüíèöû èñïîëüçóþò ñîòíè êóá.ì. â äåíü, òà æå áàðîêàìåðà, êîòîðàÿ ïðîïèñàíà â ñòàíäàðòàõ, äåéñòâèòåëüíî äîëæíà èìåòü î÷åíü âûñîêèå òðåáîâàíèÿ ïî ïðîòèâîïîæàðíîé áåçîïàñíîñòè, íî, èìåííî, ïî ïîâîäó îçîíîòåðàïåâòè÷åñêîãî îáîðóäîâàíèÿ, ïîòðåáëÿþùåãî íåçíà÷èòåëüíîå êîëè÷åñòâî êèñëîðîäà è ãåíåðèðóþùåãî, ñîâñåì íè÷òîæíîå êîëè÷åñòâî îçîíà, ïî÷åìó-òî íåîáõîäèìû òàêèå ãðîçíûå ïðîòèâîïîæàðíûå ïðåäóïðåæäåíèÿ.
Òåïåðü, ïî ïîâîäó íåêîòîðûõ Âàøèõ çàìå÷àíèé. Äà, Âàì óäàëîñü îáíàðóæèòü ëèøü êðàéíå íåçíà÷èòåëüíóþ ÷àñòü îïóáëèêîâàííûõ ðàáîò (èëè Âû ïðèâåëè òîëüêî òå ðàáîòû, êîòîðûå ïîñ÷èòàëè íóæíûì). Ýòî è ïîíÿòíî: íà ÎÒ, Âû îáðàòèëè âíèìàíèå, òîëüêî ñåé÷àñ, â ñâÿçè ñ íàñòîÿùåé äèñêóññèåé. Íå ãîâîðÿ, óæ î òîì, ÷òî íåìàëî ðàáîò îïóáëèêîâàíî íà íåìåöêîì, èñïàíñêîì, èòàëüÿíñêîì è äð. ÿçûêàõ. Òîò æå Bocci, íà êîòîðîãî Âû ïîñòîÿííî ññûëàåòåñü, êîíå÷íî ÷åëîâåê çàñëóæåííûé, íî äàëåêî íå åäèíñòâåííûé àâòîðèòåò â ýòîé îáëàñòè. Ïðîñòî, ó÷èòûâàÿ åãî ñòàòóñ è ïóáëèöèñòè÷åñêóþ àêòèâíîñòü åãî ÷àùå öèòèðóþò. Áîëåå òîãî, ïîñëå îáùåíèÿ ñ Bocci è ñ íåêîòîðûìè èç åãî ñîòðóäíèêîâ, ó ìåíÿ ñîçäàëîñü ñóáúåêòèâíîå âïå÷àòëåíèå, ÷òî ñàì Bocci ( â îòëè÷èå îò ýòèõ ñîòðóäíèêîâ, êîòîðûå ñâîèìè ðóêàìè è íå îäèí ãîä) â äåòàëÿõ íå î÷åíü. ×òî ïîäåëàåøü, ó íåãî óæå äàâíî áîëüøàÿ àäìèíèñòðàòèâíàÿ (äèðåêòîð êðóïíîãî èíñòèòóòà) è ïðåïîäàâàòåëüñêàÿ íàãðóçêà.
Âûáîð ñòàòåé èëè àííîòàöèé, êîòîðûå çäåñü ïðèâîæó, îïðåäåëÿåòñÿ, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, ÷òî îíè èìåþòñÿ â ýëåêòðîííîì âèäå. Ïåðåâîäèòü â ýëåêòðîííóþ ôîðìó îñòàëüíûå (ïîäàâëÿþùåå áîëüøèíñòâî) èññëåäîâàíèé, äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû çäåñü ÷òî-ëèáî äîêàçûâàòü, óâîëüòå. Îäíàêî, åñëè ÿ, â ñâîå âðåìÿ, äâà ñ ïîëîâèíîé ãîäà, íå ïîâîçèëñÿ áû â ïëàíå îçîíà áû ñ êðûñêàìè è ñîáà÷êàìè, òî âðÿä ëè ðåøèëñÿ âñå áðîñèòü è ïîëíîñòüþ îêóíóòüñÿ â ýòó òåìó. Ê ñëîâó, çíà÷èòåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ýòèõ ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíûõ ðàáîò, áîëüøîé ãðóïïû èññëåäîâàòåëåé, áûëà ïîñâÿùåíà èìåííî òîêñèêîëîãèè. Õîòÿ, ïðèçíàþ, ÷òî àíàëîãè÷íûå ðàáîòû ïðîâîäèëèñü è íè ðàç äðóãèìè èññëåäîâàòåëÿìè â ðàçëè÷íûõ ñòðàíàõ ìèðà. È ÷òî çíà÷èò: «ïîëíîå îòñóòñòâèå òîêñè÷íîñòè»? Ìîæåò Âû íàçîâåòå õîòü îäíî ëåêàðñòâî, êîòîðîìó ïðèñóùå ñòîëü î÷àðîâàòåëüíàÿ áåçîáèäíîñòü? Ïîâòîðÿþ, ãäå, êîãäà âîçìîæåí ãåìîëèç? ×òî çíà÷èò ïîòåíöèàëüíî ìóòàãåíåí? À êàê ìîæåò áûòü ïî äðóãîìó äëÿ ñèëüíîãî îêèñëèòåëÿ? Íî è êàê ìîæíî îáñóæäàòü ýòîò âîïðîñ â îáùåì, íå ó÷èòûâàÿ äîçû, ñïîñîá ââåäåíèÿ, «âðåìÿ æèçíè», öèòèðóÿ ðàáîòû èç ñîâåðøåíî äðóãîé îáëàñòè ïî òîêñè÷íîìó äåéñòâèþ àòìîñôåðíîãî îçîíà, ìíîãîêðàòíî óñèëåííîãî îêèñëàìè àçîòà, íà äûõàòåëüíûé òðàêò? Ñ òàêèì æå óñïåõîì, ìîæíî ïðèçâàòü ê ïîëíîìó îòêàçó îò ìàñëà, ïîòîìó ÷òî ïîëíî ðàáîò ïî æèðîâîé ýìáîëèè. Õîòèòå ðàáîòû ïî ìóòàãåííîìó äåéñòâèþ õëîðà? È ÷òî òåïåðü õëîðèðîâàííóþ âîäó íå ïèòü è â áàññåéíàõ íå êóïàòüñÿ? Òîãäà è íà ñîëíûøêî íå äàé áîã, à óæ ÐÉ âîîáùå çà êèëëîìåòð. Èëè, ê ïðèìåðó, ïðè òîé æå ÃÁÎ, êîòîðàÿ «â çàêîíå», àêòèâíûõ ôîðì êèñëîðîäà â êðîâè îáðàçóåòñÿ çíà÷èòåëüíî áîëüøå, ÷åì ïðè ñèñòåìíîé ÎÒ. Äà è, âîîáùå, íå ïîìíèòå ñêîëüêî ó íàñ ïîñòîÿííî â îðãàíèçìå ìóòàöèé ñëó÷àþòñÿ? È åñëè áû íå äîáëåñíûé èììóíèòåò…

P.S. Âîò ÿ çäåñü ïðèâîäèë ñ ïîëòîðà äåñÿòêà ðàçëè÷íûõ ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíûõ ðàáîò, ïðè÷åì, ñäåëàííûõ «ïî âïîëíå ïðèëè÷íîìó» äèçàéíó. Íî îíè, êàê ìíå îáúÿñíèëè, íó íè÷åãîøåíüêè íå äîêàçûâàþò, òàê æå êàê è èçìåíåíèÿ ðàçëè÷íûõ ëàáîðàòîðíûõ ñóððîãàòíûõ ïîêàçàòåëåé ó áîëüíûõ, ñóùåñòâåííî áîëåå áûñòðîå ñíèæåíèå òèòðà ïàòîãåííîé ôëîðû, ÷åì ïðè ñòàíäàðòíûõ ìåòîäèêàõ è ò.ï.
À ìîæåò, âìåñòî íè ÷åãî íå çíà÷àùèõ ðàçãîâîðîâ îáî âñåì, à íà ñàìîì äåëå íå î ÷åì, âñå æå ïîïðîáîâàòü îáñóäèòü êîíêðåòíûå ðàáîòû? («Êëèíèêó» ïîêà îñòàâèì íà ïîòîì). Äëÿ òàêèõ îáñóæäåíèé, ÿ ïîëíîñòüþ â Âàøåì ðàñïîðÿæåíèè.
  #35  
Ñòàðûé 08.08.2003, 05:11
E.E. Studentsov E.E. Studentsov âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2003
Ãîðîä: New York, USA
Ñîîáùåíèé: 834
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 6 ðàç(à) çà 4 ñîîáùåíèé
E.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Îïóáëèêîâàíî: V. ZAITSEV
Äà, Âàì óäàëîñü îáíàðóæèòü ëèøü êðàéíå íåçíà÷èòåëüíóþ ÷àñòü îïóáëèêîâàííûõ ðàáîò (èëè Âû ïðèâåëè òîëüêî òå ðàáîòû, êîòîðûå ïîñ÷èòàëè íóæíûì). Ýòî è ïîíÿòíî: íà ÎÒ, Âû îáðàòèëè âíèìàíèå, òîëüêî ñåé÷àñ, â ñâÿçè ñ íàñòîÿùåé äèñêóññèåé. Íå ãîâîðÿ, óæ î òîì, ÷òî íåìàëî ðàáîò îïóáëèêîâàíî íà íåìåöêîì, èñïàíñêîì, èòàëüÿíñêîì è äð. ÿçûêàõ...Âûáîð ñòàòåé èëè àííîòàöèé, êîòîðûå çäåñü ïðèâîæó, îïðåäåëÿåòñÿ, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, ÷òî îíè èìåþòñÿ â ýëåêòðîííîì âèäå. Ïåðåâîäèòü â ýëåêòðîííóþ ôîðìó îñòàëüíûå (ïîäàâëÿþùåå áîëüøèíñòâî) èññëåäîâàíèé, äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû çäåñü ÷òî-ëèáî äîêàçûâàòü, óâîëüòå. Îäíàêî, åñëè ÿ, â ñâîå âðåìÿ, äâà ñ ïîëîâèíîé ãîäà, íå ïîâîçèëñÿ áû â ïëàíå îçîíà áû ñ êðûñêàìè è ñîáà÷êàìè, òî âðÿä ëè ðåøèëñÿ âñå áðîñèòü è ïîëíîñòüþ îêóíóòüñÿ â ýòó òåìó. Ê ñëîâó, çíà÷èòåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ýòèõ ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíûõ ðàáîò, áîëüøîé ãðóïïû èññëåäîâàòåëåé, áûëà ïîñâÿùåíà èìåííî òîêñèêîëîãèè. Õîòÿ, ïðèçíàþ, ÷òî àíàëîãè÷íûå ðàáîòû ïðîâîäèëèñü è íè ðàç äðóãèìè èññëåäîâàòåëÿìè â ðàçëè÷íûõ ñòðàíàõ ìèðà...

Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷!
ß âåäü Âàñ è ñïðàøèâàë, ñóùåñòâóþò ëè äðóãèå ðàáîòû. ß ïðîàíàëèçèðîâàë òå, ÷òî ìíå óäàëîñü íàéòè. Ìíå íå íóæíû ýëåêòðîííûå âåðñèè. Åñëè Âàñ íå çàòðóäíèò, ïðîñòî ïðèâåäèòå ññûëêè íà æóðíàëû, â êîòîðûõ ðàáîòû, î êîòîðûõ Âû ãîâîðèòå, îïóáëèêîâàíû, íåâàæíî íà êàêîì ÿçûêå. Ó ìåíÿ åñòü äîñòóï ê ëþáûì íàó÷íûì æóðíàëàì. Ðàáîòû Renate Viebahn-Haensler ïî âîçìîæíîñòè íå ïðèâîäèòå. Âû, íàâåðíîå, äîãàäûâàåòåñü ïî÷åìó. Ñïàñèáî.

Êàê ÿ ïîíÿë èç Âàøåãî îòâåòà, Âû â ïðèíöèïå íå îòðèöàåòå âîçìîæíîé òîêñè÷íîñòè è ìóòàãåííîñòè îçîíà ïðè îçîíîòåðàïèè. Ïðåäîñòàâëÿåòå ëè Âû ýòó èíôîðìàöèþ ïàöèåíòàì? Èíôîðìàöèÿ î âîçìîæíûõ ïîáî÷íûõ äåéñòâèÿõ óòâåpæäåííûõ ëåêàðñòâåííûõ ñðåäñòâ ëåãêî äîñòóïíà äëÿ ïàöèåíòîâ.
È ÷òî Âû äóìàåòå î ïîâûøåíèè êîíêðåòíîãî ìàðêåðà êàíöåðîãåíåçà 8-îõî-dG ó áîëüíûõ ïîñëå îçîíîòåðàïèè? Âàøå îòíîøåíèå ê íàñëåäñòâåííî îáóñëîâëåííîé ãèïåð÷óâñòâèòåëüíîñòè ê îçîíó.
Âû òàêæå íå îòâåòèëè íà âîïðîñ îá îñëîæíåíèÿõ, êîòîðûå âñòðå÷àëèñü â Âàøåé ïðàêòèêå.
×òî Âû äóìàåòå î ïðè÷èíàõ ýéôîðèè, íàáëþäàåìîé V.Bocci ó áîëüøèíñòâà ïàöèåíòîâ ïîñëå îçîíîòåðàïèè?

Ñ óâàæåíèåì
Å.Å.Ñòóäåíöîâ, MD
Albert Einstein College of Medicine
  #36  
Ñòàðûé 08.08.2003, 20:39
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìûé Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷ !
Ðàç ýòà äèñêóññèÿ ïðîäîëæàåòñÿ, èãíîðèðîâàòü Âàøè âîïðîñû íå áóäó. Ïðàâäà îíà, êàê è ìíîãèå äðóãèå, â îáùåì –òî, íå îá îçîíîòåðàïèè, à î ðàçëè÷èè ìûøëåíèÿ.
Íà÷íó, ñ ïîñëåäíåãî âîïðîñà, òåì áîëåå, ÷òî «ýéôîðèþ» íàáëþäàëè íåîäíîêðàòíî íå òîëüêî Bocci. Îñîáåííî ó ïàöèåíòîâ, ó êîòîðûõ îòìå÷àëàñü íåêîòîðàÿ, ïóñòü äàæå íåçíà÷èòåëüíàÿ, ãèïîêñèÿ ÃÌ ëþáîé ýòèîëîãèè. Íàãëÿäíî íàáëþäàòü, â ýòîì ñëó÷àå, çà ñòàðèêàìè, ñ ïðèçíàêàìè àòåðîñêëåðîçà ñîñóäîâ ãîëîâíîãî ìîçãà. Ïðàâäà, ïîñëåäíèå õàðàêòåðèçóþò ñâîå ñîñòîÿíèå íèêàê ýéôîðèþ, à ÷òî âðîäå: «ïðÿìî òàêè îæèë».  ïðèíöèïå, òàêèå æå ñîñòîÿíèå, â áîëåå ñëàáîé ôîðìå, ìîã îùóùàòü ëþáîé èç íàñ, êîãäà «èç ãîðîäà, èç-ïîä âûõëîïíîé òðóáû, äà íà ÷èñòûé êèñëîðîä….». À êàê âëèÿåò ÎÒ íà ìèêðîöèðêóëÿöèþ, ðåîëîãèþ êðîâè, òêàíåâîå äûõàíèå íà ôîðóìå áûëî äîâîëüíî ìíîãî ìàòåðèàëà. Íàäåþñü, Âû åãî âèäåëè?

Òåïåðü îïÿòü î «òîêñè÷íîñòè è ìóòàãåííîñòè». Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷, Âû êàæåòñÿ âèðóñîëîã, ïî-âèäèìîìó, ó÷àñòâîâàëè â ðàçëè÷íûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ? Íî êàê æå ìîæíî, ÷òî - ëèáî îáñóæäàòü ïî îäíîé ôîðìóëèðîâêå, ãäå-òî, î ÷åì –òî îïèñàííîé? Áåç êîíöåíòðàöèé, äîç, òèòðîâ, ìåñò ïðèëîæåíèÿ? Äà íàñ îêðóæàåò, ìû ïüåì, äûøèì, ñîïðèêàñàåìñÿ ñ äîñòàòî÷íî áîëüøèì êîëè÷åñòâîì âåùåñòâ, êîòîðûå ïðè îïðåäåëåííûõ êîíöåíòðàöèÿõ è äîçàõ òîêñè÷íû, ìóòàãåíû.
ß óæå â ïðîøëîì ñâîåì ñîîáùåíèå ïðèâîäèë ïðèìåðû, ê êàêèì ïàðàäîêñàëüíûì âûâîäàì, ìîæíî ïðèéòè òàê ðàññóæäàÿ. ×òî, åñëè ãäå-òî ïðî÷åñòü, ÷òî õëîðèñòûé âîäîðîä ìîæåò ïîðàæàòü äûõàòåëüíûå ïóòè, ëåãêèå, ÷òî óæå 0.05% õëîðèñòîãî âîäîðîäà â âîçäóõå ìîãóò áûòü ñìåðòåëüíû, íàäî ñðî÷íî óäàëÿòü æåëóäîê?
Äà, îçîí ñèëüíûé îêèñëèòåëü, ñ íèçêîé ÏÄÊ (0,1 ìã íà ì3) ñîäåðæàíèÿ â âîçäóõå. Ïðè áîëåå âûñîêèõ êîíöåíòðàöèÿõ, â ñâÿçè ñ åãî âûñîêîé îêèñëèòåëüíîé àêòèâíîñòüþ, ìîæåò îêàçûâàòü òîêñè÷åñêîå âîçäåéñòâèå íà ñëèçèñòóþ äûõàòåëüíûõ ïóòåé, îñîáåííî â ñîâîêóïíîñòè ñ äðóãèìè
êîìïîíåíòàìè ñìîãà. Íî êàêîå îòíîøåíèå ýòî èìååò ê ÎÒ? Êðîìå êàê, ÷òî íåëüçÿ ðàáîòàòü íà îáîðóäîâàíèè ñ ïëîõèì äåñòðóêòîðîì íåèñïîëüçîâàííîãî îçîíà èëè ãäå-òî òàì íå ãåðìåòè÷íîãî, ïîýòîìó «âîíÿþùåãî» îçîíîì. Ïðàâäà, íà òàêîì îáîðóäîâàíèè, ìàëî êòî çàõî÷åò ðàáîòàòü: ðåçêèé çàïàõ îçîíà ÷óâñòâóåòñÿ óæå ïðè íåñêîëüêèõ äåñÿòûõ ÏÄÊ.
Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷. Ìîæåò ñòîèò ñíà÷àëà ðàçîáðàòüñÿ, ÷òî åñòü ÎÒ, êàê å¸ äåëàþò? Êàêèå äîçû è êóäà? Êîíå÷íî, è ïðè èñïîëüçóåìûõ ìåòîäàõ ÎÒ, åñëè ïîñòàðàòüñÿ, ìîæíî ââåñòè òîêñè÷åñêèå äîçû îçîíà, à ÷òî íåëüçÿ? Íî ïðè òåðàïåâòè÷åñêèõ äîçèðîâêàõ, ÿ îòâå÷àþ çà ñâîè ñëîâà, êîëè÷åñòâî ïîáî÷íûõ ðåàêöèé ïðè ÎÒ ñóùåñòâåííî íèæå, ÷åì â ñðåäíåì ïðè ìåäèêàìåíòîçíîé òåðàïèè.

Òåïåðü î ëèòåðàòóðå. Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷, èçâèíèòå çà ïðÿìîé âîïðîñ, à ïî÷åìó âäðóã Âû åþ çàèíòåðåñîâàëèñü? ×òî áû îòûñêèâàòü íåäîñòàòêè?
Âàñ òàêæå â ðàáîòàõ òèïà, ïðèâåäåííîé íèæå, áóäåò ÅÄÈÍÑÒÂÅÍÍÎ, ÷òî èíòåðåñîâàòü, à íàñêîëüêî âûäåðæàí ïðèíöèï ñëó÷àéíîñòè âûáîðîê ïðè ðàíäîìèçàöèè? Õîòÿ áîëüíûõ ñ äàííîé ïàòîëîãèåé, òîëüêî â ýòîé áîëüíèöå çà ñåìü-âîñåìü ëåò ÎÒ ïðîëå÷åíî óæå íè îäíà ñîòíÿ.

ÎÇÎÍÎÒÅÐÀÏÈß Â ÊÎÌÏËÅÊÑÅ ËÅ×ÅÁÍÛÕ ÌÅÐÎÏÐÈßÒÈÉ Ó ÁÎËÜÍÛÕ Ñ ÀÍÀÝÐÎÁÍÎÉ ÕÈÐÓÐÃÈ×ÅÑÊÎÉ ÈÍÔÅÊÖÈÅÉ
Ðîäîìàí Ã.Â., Îáîëåíñêèé Â.Í., Ëàáåðêî Ë.À.

Êàôåäðà îáùåé õèðóðãèè ëå÷åáíîãî ôàêóëüòåòà ÐÃÌÓ Ãîðîäñêàÿ êëèíè÷åñêàÿ áîëüíèöà ¹ 13, Ìîñêâà
Öåëü èññëåäîâàíèÿ: èçó÷èòü ýôôåêòèâíîñòü ïðèìåíåíèÿ ìåñòíûõ è ñèñòåìíûõ ìåòîäîâ îçîíîòåðàïèè (ÎÒ) â êîìïëåêñíîì ëå÷åíèè áîëüíûõ ñ îáøèðíûìè ïîðàæåíèÿìè ìÿãêèõ òêàíåé, âûçâàííûõ àíàýðîáíîé èíôåêöèåé
(ÀÈÌÒ).
Ìàòåðèàëû è ìåòîäû: ïðîâåäåí ñðàâíèòåëüíûé àíàëèç ðåçóëüòàòîâ ëå÷åíèÿ äâóõ ãðóïï áîëüíûõ ñ ÀÈÌÒ. Êîíòðîëüíóþ ãðóïïó ñîñòàâèëè 44 ïàöèåíòà, ëå÷åíèå êîòîðûõ ïðîâîäèëè òðàäèöèîííûìè ìåòîäàìè. Îñíîâíóþ ãðóïïó ñîñòàâèëè 32 ïàöèåíòà, â êîìïëåêñíîì ëå÷åíèè
êîòîðûõ ïðèìåíÿëè ìåòîäû ÎÒ: âíóòðèâåííîå êàïåëüíîå ââåäåíèå îçîíèðîâàííîãî èçîòîíè÷åñêîãî ðàñòâîðà õëîðèäà íàòðèÿ ñ êîíöåíòðàöèåé îçîíà îò 2-4 äî 6-8 ìêã/ìë.;
èíòðàîïåðàöèîííîå è ïîñëåîïåðàöèîííîå ïðîìûâàíèå îòêðûòûõ è çàêðûòûõ ïîñëåîïåðàöèîííûõ ðàí îçîíèðîâàííûìè ðàñòâîðàìè (äèñòèëëèðîâàííàÿ âîäà, ôèçèîëîãè÷åñêèé è ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèé ðàñòâîð õëîðèäà íàòðèÿ), â òîì ÷èñëå ÷åðåç ïðîòî÷íî-ïðîìûâíûå ñèñòåìû: äëÿ ìåñòíîé ñàíàöèè ïðèìåíÿëè îçîíèðîâàííûå ðàñòâîðû ñ êîíöåíòðàöèåé îçîíà îò 8 äî 22 ìêã/ìë; àýðàöèÿ îòêðûòûõ ðàí îçîíîêèñëîðîäíîé ñìåñüþ â ïëàñòèêîâîì èçîëÿòîðå ñ êîíöåíòðàöèåé îçîíà 30-70 ìêã/ìë; àïïëèêàöèè ïåðåâÿçî÷íûõ ñðåäñòâ ñ îçîíèðîâàííûìè ðàñòâîðàìè èëè ìàñëîì íà ðàíû. Ïåðèîäè÷íîñòü, êîëè÷åñòâî ïðîöåäóð, êîíöåíòðàöèÿ îçîíà è íåîáõîäèìûå äîçû îïðåäåëÿëè â çàâèñèìîñòè îò ôàçû ðàíåâîãî ïðîöåññà è âûðàæåííîñòè êëèíèêî-ëàáîðàòîðíûõ ïðîÿâëåíèé çàáîëåâàíèÿ. Ãðóïïû áîëüíûõ áûëè ðàíäîìèçèðîâàíû ïî ïîëó, âîçðàñòó, õàðàêòåðó ïàòîëîãèè; òÿæåñòè òå÷åíèÿ çàáîëåâàíèÿ (îöåíêà ïî øêàëå SAPS). Ïëîùàäü ïîðàæåíèÿ ñîñòàâëÿëà îò 10 äî 36% ïîâåðõíîñòè òåëà.
Ðåçóëüòàòû: êîìïëåêñíîå êëèíèêî-ëàáîðàòîðíîå îáñëåäîâàíèå áîëüíûõ ïîêàçàëî îò÷åòëèâî âûðàæåííûå ïðîÿâëåíèÿ ïðîòèâîâîñïàëèòåëüíîãî, äåòîêñèêàöèîííîãî, áàêòåðèöèäíîãî è àíòèãèïîêñè÷åñêîãî ýôôåêòîâ ÎÒ.  îñíîâíîé ãðóïïå áîëüíûõ îòìå÷åíà áûñòðàÿ áàêòåðèàëüíàÿ äåêîíòàìèíàöèÿ ðàí è î÷èùåíèå ðàíåâîé ïîâåðõíîñòè îò íåêðîòè÷åñêèõ ìàññ ïðè çíà÷èòåëüíîì ñîêðàùåíèè ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîñòè àíòèáàêòåðèàëüíîé òåðàïèè.  ñðåäíåì íà 23% ñîêðàùåíû ñðîêè ëå÷åíèÿ äî âûïîëíåíèÿ îïåðàòèâíûõ âìåøàòåëüñòâ ïî çàêðûòèþ ðàíåâîé ïîâåðõíîñòè. Ìèêðîáèîëîãè÷åñêèå èññëåäîâàíèÿ, ïðîâåäåííûå ó áîëüíûõ îñíîâíîé ãðóïïû, ïîêàçàëè, ÷òî ïðè ðàäèêàëüíîì âûïîëíåíèè õèðóðãè÷åñêîãî âìåøàòåëüñòâà íà ñëåäóþùèå ñóòêè ïîñëå îïåðàöèè ñòåïåíü áàêòåðèàëüíîé îáñåìåíåííîñòè ðàíåâîãî ýêññóäàòà íå ïðåâûøàëà êðèòè÷åñêèõ çíà÷åíèé. Äåòîêñèêàöèîííîå âîçäåéñòâèå îçîíà ïðè åãî â/â ââåäåíèè êîíòðîëèðîâàëè ïî óðîâíþ ñðåäíåìîëåêóëÿðíûõ ïåïòèäîâ â ïëàçìå êðîâè è â ìî÷å. Îòìå÷åíî äîñòîâåðíîå ñíèæåíèå óðîâíÿ ñðåäåìîëåêóëÿðíûõ ñîåäèíåíèé ïîñëå èíôóçèé îçîíèðîâàííîãî ôèçèîëîãè÷åñêîãî ðàñòâîðà è äîñòîâåðíîå óâåëè÷åíèå îêñèãåíàöèè êðîâè.
Ïðèìåíåíèå ìåòîäîâ ÎÒ â êîìïëåêñå ëå÷åíèÿ áîëüíûõ ñ ÀÈÌÒ ïîçâîëèëî ñîêðàòèòü ëåòàëüíîñòü â îñíîâíîé ãðóïïå äî 18,8% (â êîíòðîëüíîé - 68,0%, ð<0,05). Ñðåäè âûæèâøèõ áîëüíûõ ñðåäíÿÿ ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîñòü ïðåáûâàíèÿ â ñòàöèîíàðå â êîíòðîëüíîé ãðóïïå ñîñòàâèëà 50,4 äíÿ, â îñíîâíîé - 26,7 äíÿ. Ñàíàöèîííûõ îïåðàòèâíûõ âìåøàòåëüñòâ â êîíòðîëüíîé ãðóïïå â ñðåäíåì ïîòðåáîâàëîñü 3,1, â îñíîâíîé - 2,5. Ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîñòü I ôàçû ðàíåâîãî ïðîöåññà â êîíòðîëüíîé ãðóïïå â ñðåäíåì ñîñòàâèëà 34,2 äíÿ, â îñíîâíîé - 10,3 äíÿ. Ñðåäíÿÿ äëèòåëüíîñòü àíòèáèîòèêîòåðàïèè â êîíòðîëüíîé ãðóïïå - 22,1 äíÿ, â îñíîâíîé - 9,9 äíåé.  îñíîâíîé ãðóïïå áîëüíûõ áûëî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàíî â 2,5 ðàçà ìåíüøå ñëó÷àåâ ðàçâèòèÿ ñèíäðîìà ïîëèîðãàííîé äèñôóíêöèè.
Çàêëþ÷åíèå: ïðèìåíåíèå â ëå÷åíèè ÀÈÌÒ êîìáèíàöèè ìåñòíûõ è ñèñòåìíûõ ìåòîäîâ ÎÒ ñ ïåðâûõ õèðóðãè÷åñêèõ ñóòîê ïîçâîëÿåò ñîêðàòèòü ëåòàëüíîñòü, ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîñòü ïðåáûâàíèÿ áîëüíîãî â ñòàöèîíàðå, äëèòåëüíîñòü àíòèáèîòèêîòåðàïèè, êîëè÷åñòâî ïîâòîðíûõ îïåðàòèâíûõ âìåøàòåëüñòâ

Èëè Âû òàê æå áóäåòå îòðèöàòü, ê ïðèìåðó, Êóáèíñêèå ðàáîòû, áóäü îíè õîòü òðèæäû ðàíäîìèçèðîâàíûìè è ñëåïûìè, ïîòîìó ÷òî ó íèõ Ô. Êàñòðî?

Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷! Åñëè Âû îòêðîâåííî ïðîÿñíèòå ñâîè íàìåðåíüÿ, èíòåðåñû è îíè äåéñòâèòåëüíî ñâÿçàíû ñ æåëàíèåì ïîëó÷èòü îòíîñèòåëüíî îáúåêòèâíóþ êàðòèíó ïî îçîíîòåðàïèè, òî ÿ ñ óäîâîëüñòâèåì îáñóæó ñ Âàìè áîëåå êîíêðåòíûå âîïðîñû è äåòàëè.
À òàê, ïîâåðòè, ê ïëåÿäå ðàçîáëà÷èòåëåé ôîðóìà, Âû íè ÷åãî íîâîãî íå äîáàâèòå.
  #37  
Ñòàðûé 12.08.2004, 01:56
E.E. Studentsov E.E. Studentsov âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2003
Ãîðîä: New York, USA
Ñîîáùåíèé: 834
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 6 ðàç(à) çà 4 ñîîáùåíèé
E.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò V. ZAITSEV
.... èìåþò ìåñòî ñîâñåì äðóãèå äîçû, ÷òî ïàðåíòåðàëüíî ââîäèòüñÿ óæå íå îçîí, à ìåòàáîëèò ñ åãî ïîìîùüþ ïîëó÷åííûé, êàê ÿ óæå ïèñàë, ñëàáûé îêèñëèòåëü, çíà÷èòåëüíî ñëàáåå ïåðåêèñè âîäîðîäà. Î êàêîì ãåìîëèçå çäåñü èäåò ðå÷ü?
Ïîâòîðÿþ, ãäå, êîãäà âîçìîæåí ãåìîëèç?
Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷,


Áûëî áû î÷åíü ëþáîïûòíî óñëûøàòü Âàøå ìíåíèå êàñàòåëüíî èíòåðâüþ äîêòîðà Ãàçèíà Èãîðÿ Êàìèëüåâè÷à. Ãàçèí È.Ê.- âðà÷, ÊÌÍ, ãëàâíûé âðà÷ Êëèíèêè ñîâðåìåííîé îçîíîòåðàïèè. Èíòåðåñíû Âàøè êîììåíòàðèè ê êàæäîìó âîïðîñó. Âîò ëèíê:

[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

Íî ñàìîå èíòåðåñíîå ÿ íàøåë â "Îïèñàíèè èçîáðåòåíèÿ ê ïàòåíòó Ðîññèéñêîé ôåäåðàöèè" çà íîìåðîì RU 2214251 C2 (àâòîð Ãàçèí È.Ê. "Ñïîñîá ñèñòåìíîé îçîíîòåðàïèè è ïàðàïóëüìîíàëüíîé îêñèãåíàöèè):
"Èçâåñòåí ñïoñîá áîëüøîé àóòîãåìîòåðàïèè ñ îçîíîì, ïðè êîòîðîì êðîâü çàáèðàåòñÿ èç âåíû ïàöèåíòà, îáðàáàòûâàåòñÿ ìåäèöèíñêèì îçîíîì â ñïåöèàëüíîé ïëàñòèêîâîé êàìåðå, ïîñëå ÷åãî ââîäèòñÿ âíóòðèâåííî.
Îäíàêî èçâåñòíûé ñïîñîá îñóùåñòâëÿåòñÿ ýêñòðàêîðïîðàëüíî, ÷òî òðåáóåò ñïåöèàëüíîãî îáîðóäîâàíèÿ, àíòèêîàãóëÿíòîâ, ñèñòåì äëÿ ýêñôóçèè è òðàíñôóçèè. Èñïîëüçóåòñÿ 50-100 ìë êðîâè è êîíöåíòðàöèÿ îçîíà îò 20-40 ìã/ë, ÷òî âåäåò ê òðàâìàòèçàöèè è ïîâðåæäåíèþ ôîðìåííûõ ýëåìåíòîâ, ãåìîëèçó ýðèòðîöèòîâ. Îçîí çà âðåìÿ ïðîâåäåíèÿ ïðîöåäóðû ÷àñòè÷íî ðàñïàäàåòñÿ, à íàñûùåíèå êðîâè íå ïîëíîå, òàê êàê èäåò ïóò¸ì äèôôóçèè ãàç-êðîâü."

Î ïðÿìîì ãåìîëèòè÷åñêîì âîçäåéñòâèè îçîíà ìû ãîâîðèëè â ñàìîì íà÷àëå íàøåé äèñêóññèè. Òîãäà Âû ïîäíÿëè ìåíÿ íà ñìåõ, çàÿâèâ, ÷òî ÿ íå ìîãó ñóäèòü î ìåòîäèêå íå ïîòðîãàâ å¸ ñîáñòâåííûìè ðóêàìè.

Âîò Ãàçèí ïîïðîáîâàë: ãåìîëèç íàáëþäàë. Âàø êîììåíòàðèé.
  #38  
Ñòàðûé 12.08.2004, 16:46
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìûé Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷ó!
Âû çàáûëè. ß íà ýòîò âîïðîñ óæå îòâå÷àë.  íàøåì ðàçãîâîðå, êîòîðûé Âû öèòèðóåòå: «ïàðåíòåðàëüíî ââîäèòüñÿ óæå íå îçîí, à ìåòàáîëèò ñ åãî ïîìîùüþ ïîëó÷åííûé, êàê ÿ óæå ïèñàë, ñëàáûé îêèñëèòåëü, çíà÷èòåëüíî ñëàáåå ïåðåêèñè âîäîðîäà. Î êàêîì ãåìîëèçå çäåñü èäåò ðå÷ü?» - ðå÷ü î ãåìîëèçå in vivo, â ñîñóäèñòîì ðóñëå. À Ãàçèí ðàññêàçûâàåò î âîçìîæíîì ýôôåêòå in vitro, êîãäà äëÿ àóòîãåìîòåðàïèè â 50-100 ìë. ðàñòâîðÿþò âñþ äîçó îçîíà, íà âåñü îáúåì êðîâè ÷åëîâåêà.  ýòîì ñëó÷àå, ïðè äîñòàòî÷íî áîëüøèõ äîçèðîâêàõ (êîíöåíòðàöèÿõ) îçîíà, èñïîëüçóåìûõ, ê ïðèìåðó, ïðè ëå÷åíèè àóòîèììóííûõ çàáîëåâàíèé, â ýòèõ 50-100 ìë (è òîëüêî â íèõ) ìîæåò íàáëþäàòüñÿ ÷àñòè÷íûé ãåìîëèç. Íó, è ÷òî? ×åì ýòîò ÷àñòè÷íûé ãåìîëèç â 100 ìë. ìîæåò ïîâðåäèòü?
  #39  
Ñòàðûé 12.08.2004, 18:24
E.E. Studentsov E.E. Studentsov âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2003
Ãîðîä: New York, USA
Ñîîáùåíèé: 834
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 6 ðàç(à) çà 4 ñîîáùåíèé
E.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷,

Íèêòî íå çàáûò, íè÷òî íå çàáûòî. Âû îòðèöàëè ãåìîëèç êàê òàêîâîé, ññûëàÿñü íà íèçêèå äîçû îçîíà è èçðàèëüñêóþ ðàáîòó ïî ýðèòðîöèòàì è îçîíó (òàì ãåìîëèç âñå æå íàáëþäàëñÿ- â 4%). Âûáðîñ ñâîáîäíîãî æåëåçà (ãäå îí ïðîèçîøåë in vivo or in vitro íåïðèíöèïèàëüíî) â êðîâü ðåçêî óâåëè÷èâàåò âîçìîæíîñòü îêñèäàòèâíîé àòàêè íà ÄÍÊ.
  #40  
Ñòàðûé 12.08.2004, 19:58
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìûé Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷ó!
ß óæå íè ðàç ñïðàøèâàë, ÷òî Âû õîòèòå äîêàçàòü èñïîëüçóÿ òàêèå ìåòîäû äèñêóññèè. Ãäå, â êàêèõ ñëó÷àÿõ ÿ «îòðèöàë ãåìîëèç êàê òàêîâîé»?
Ïðèâîæó àáçàö, êîòîðûé Âû ñòàâèòå ìíå íà âèä ïîëíîñòüþ: «Íàñêîëüêî Âû èíôîðìèðîâàíû, ÷òî ìåòîäèêè è ÌÅÕÀÍÈÇÌÛ ïðèìåíåíèÿ îçîíà â ìåäèöèíå in vitro (õîòÿ áû äëÿ óñèëåíèÿ âèðóñíîé áåçîïàñíîñòè äîíîðñêîé êðîâè - áûëà òàêàÿ èäåÿ) è in vivo, ïðè ëå÷åíèè âèðóñíûõ çàáîëåâàíèé, äâå îãðîìíûå ðàçíèöû? ×òî, âî-âòîðîì ñëó÷àå èìåþò ìåñòî ñîâñåì äðóãèå äîçû, ÷òî ïàðåíòåðàëüíî ââîäèòüñÿ óæå íå îçîí, à ìåòàáîëèò ñ åãî ïîìîùüþ ïîëó÷åííûé, êàê ÿ óæå ïèñàë, ñëàáûé îêèñëèòåëü, çíà÷èòåëüíî ñëàáåå ïåðåêèñè âîäîðîäà. Î êàêîì ãåìîëèçå çäåñü èäåò ðå÷ü?»

È, Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷, ÿ óæ íè çíàþ êàêèìè ñëîâàìè åù¸ ìîæíî îáúÿñíèòü, ÷òî ïîâòîðÿë ìíîãîêðàòíî. Íó, ÍÅËÜÇß, ÍÅËÜÇß, îáñóæäàòü ôèçèîëîãè÷åñêîå äåéñòâèå êàêèõ – ëèáî âåùåñòâ, áåç ÷åòêîé ññûëêè íà èñïîëüçóåìûå äîçû, êîíöåíòðàöèè. ×òî, äîçà â 50 ðàç ìåíüøàÿ, ÷åì òà ïðè êîòîðîé íàáëþäàëñÿ ãåìîëèç, ñîâñåì íåîáÿçàòåëüíî, òàê æå ýòîò ñàìûé ãåìîëèç «äåëàåò».
Òî ÷òî òîêñè÷åñêèå ýôôåêòû îäíîçíà÷íî çàâèñÿò îò äîçû - îòíîñèòñÿ íè òîëüêî ê îçîíó, à ê ìíîæåñòâó äðóãèõ âåùåñòâ è ïî-ìîåìó íàñòîëüêî î÷åâèäíî, ÷òî òðóäíî ïðåäñòàâèòü, ÷òî Âû ýòîãî íå ïîíèìàåòå.
×òî Âû õîòèòå äîêàçàòü? ×òî Âàøå ïðåäóïðåæäåíèå ê ÷åëîâå÷åñòâó, ñ êîòîðîãî íà÷àëè ó÷àñòâîâàòü â ýòîé äèñêóññèè: «Îïûòû ñ ðàçëè÷íûìè ãàçàìè íàä ëþäüìè ïðîâîäèëèñü êîå-ãäå äî 1945 ãîäà. ×åì ýòî êîí÷èëîñü, ìû çíàåì - Íþðíáåðãñêèì ïðîöåññîì. Òàê ÷òî, åñëè Âàø øåô õî÷åò âîçîáíîâèòü ïîäîáíûå îïûòû - ïóñòü çàïàñåòñÿ ñïðàâêîé èç åâðîïåéñêîé êîìèññèè ïî ïðàâàì ÷åëîâåêà, èíà÷å ìîãóò áûòü íåïðèÿòíîñòè ñ Ãààãñêèì ñóäîì» - áûëî íåäîñòàòî÷íî óñëûøàíî?
  #41  
Ñòàðûé 12.08.2004, 20:24
E.E. Studentsov E.E. Studentsov âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2003
Ãîðîä: New York, USA
Ñîîáùåíèé: 834
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 6 ðàç(à) çà 4 ñîîáùåíèé
E.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷,

Âñå ïðèâåäåííûå ìíîþ ðàáîòû ïîâåñòâóþò íå î òîêñè÷íîñòè îçîíà ÂÎÎÁÙÅ, à î ìóòàãåííîì è ãåìîëèòè÷åñêîì ýôôåêòå ÏÎÑËÅ ÊÓÐÑÀ ÎÇÎÍÎÒÅÐÀÏÈÈ. Âû ïðîñòî íå õîòèòå ýòîãî çàìå÷àòü èç-çà ôàíàòè÷íîé âåðû è ôèíàíñîâîé çàèíòåðåñîâàííîñòè. Ìîè ñëîâà î Ãààãå, ïðàâàõ áîëüíîãî, îá îòâåòñòâåííîñòè âðà÷à çà ìåòîä ëå÷åíèÿ, î Õåëüñèíñêîé äåêëàðàöèè è î áåñïàðäîííûõ ýêñïåðèìåíòàõ íàä áîëüíûìè â Ðîññèè óñëûøàíû íå áûëè. Äîêòîð Ãàçèí (ïîäõîäÿùàÿ ôàìèëèÿ) ïðàêòèêóåò ïðÿìîå ââåäåíèå îçîíà â êîñòíûé ìîçã, äåòè è áåðåìåííûå ïðîòèâîïîêàçàíèåì íå ÿâëÿþòñÿ. Ïîýòîìó î Õåëüñèíñêîé äåêëàðàöèè íåîáõîäèìî íàïîìèíàòü êàê ìîæíî ÷àùå.

[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
  #42  
Ñòàðûé 13.08.2004, 00:50
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò E.E. Studentsov
Âñå ïðèâåäåííûå ìíîþ ðàáîòû ïîâåñòâóþò íå î òîêñè÷íîñòè îçîíà ÂÎÎÁÙÅ, à î ìóòàãåííîì è ãåìîëèòè÷åñêîì ýôôåêòå ÏÎÑËÅ ÊÓÐÑÀ ÎÇÎÍÎÒÅÐÀÏÈÈ.
Óâàæàåìûé Åâãåíèé Åâãåíüåâè÷!
Ýòî íå ñîîòâåòñòâóåò äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè. È Âû ïðåêðàñíî ýòî çíàåòå. ×òî ïîäåëàåøü, åñëè ó Âàñ òàêîé ñòèëü äîêàçàòåëüñòâ.  îñíîâíîì, Âû êàê ðàç ïðèâîäèëè äàííûå î òîêñè÷íîñòè îçîíà âîîáùå, â êàêîé áû ðåäàêöèè îíà Âàì íè ïîïàäàëàñü. Óæå íè ðàç îòâå÷àë, ÷òî ïîáî÷íûõ ýôôåêòîâ îçîíîòåðàïèè ÇÍÀ×ÈÒÅËÜÍÎ ìåíüøå, ÷åì îò ìíîãèõ ïðèâû÷íûõ ëåêàðñòâ, ñ êîòîðûìè ñâÿçàíî è íåìàëî ëåòàëüíûõ èñõîäîâ. (Êàê òàì â ýòîì ïëàíå ñ Õåëüñèíñêîé äåêëàðàöèåé?) Ïðèâîäèë ñâèäåòåëüñòâà èç ðàçëè÷íûõ ñòðàí ìèðà, ïîëó÷åííûõ íà îñíîâàíèè ëå÷åíèÿ è íàáëþäåíèÿ çà òûñÿ÷àìè áîëüíûõ. Íî Âû ïðèíöèïèàëüíî íå õîòèòå èõ çàìå÷àòü, ò.ê. îíè íå óêëàäûâàþòñÿ âñåïîãëîùàþùåå æåëàíèå äîêàçàòü, ÷òî îçîí – çëî. Çà÷åì ìåøàòü Âàì â ñòîëü áëàãîðîäíîì íà÷èíàíèè.
  #43  
Ñòàðûé 18.09.2004, 09:29
korvet
Ãîñòü
 
Ñîîáùåíèé: n/a
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìûé Passer-by!
 íà÷àëå ÿ õîòåë ïðîñòî óäàëèòü ýòîò ïàñêâèëü, ãäå àâòîð, âûñêàçûâàåòñÿ î ïðåäìåòå, î êîòîðîì íå èìååò íè ìàëåéøåãî ïðåäñòàâëåíèÿ, ãäå â ðàçãîðÿ÷åííîì ëè÷íîé íåïðèÿçíüþ ìîçãó ïåðåïëåëèñü ãàçîâûå êàìåðû, Íþðíáåðãñêèé ïðîöåññ, Ãààãà è ïðîòèâîïîæàðíàÿ áåçîïàñíîñòü. Íî ïîòîì ðåøèë ïóñòü âåñèò, òàê êàê ýòîò ïîñò, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, õàðàêòåðèçóåò ñàìîãî àâòîðà. Õîòÿ íàäåþñü áîëüøå íà äàííîì ôîðóìå ñ íèì ( ïîäîçðåâàþ, ñ íåé) íå âñòðå÷àòüñÿ.
Ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ êîíôåðåíöèé ïî îçîíîòåðàïèè ïðîøëî óæå íåìàëî, òîëüêî â ýòîì ãîäó äâå - â Èòàëèè è â Ãåðìàíèè. Íà íèõ ïðî÷èòàíî äåñÿòêè äîêëàäîâ âðà÷åé, ïðîôåññîðîâ èç ðàçíûõ ñòðàí ìèðà è êëèíèê, â òîì ÷èñëå óíèâåðñèòåòñêèõ, ïî ïðèìåíåíèþ ÎÒ ïðè ðàçëè÷íûõ ïàòîëîãèÿõ. Íåêîòîðóþ (ïðàâäà, î÷åíü íåçíà÷èòåëüíóþ ÷àñòü), èç ýòèõ ðàáîò ìîæíî íàéòè â ðàçëè÷íûõ ðàçäåëàõ íà ýòîãî ôîðóìà, ïðè÷åì íå ìåíåå äþæèíû èç ïðèâåäåííûõ íà ôîðóìå ðàáîò, áûëè ñäåëàíû ïî ïðàâèëàì GCP.
 Ñåâåðíîé Àìåðèêå, íå ñ÷èòàÿ, åñòåñòâåííî, Êóáó, îçîíîòåðàïèÿ äåéñòâèòåëüíî íå â ôàâîðå è îíà ìîæåò èñïîëüçîâàòüñÿ ïðè ëå÷åíèè òîëüêî â êëèíèêàõ, ïðèìåíÿþùèõ, íàðÿäó ñ ïðîïóùåííûìè ÷åðåç FDA, è àëüòåðíàòèâíûå ìåòîäû, ïðåäóñìàòðèâàþùèå ïèñüìåííîå ñîãëàñèå ïàöèåíòîâ. ß ïðèâîäèë íà ôîðóìå ñàéò ñ àäðåñàìè îêîëî äâàäöàòè òàêèõ êëèíèê â ÑØÀ è Êàíàäå, ãäå îçîíîòåðàïèÿ èñïîëüçóåòñÿ ïðè ëå÷åíèè öåëîãî ðÿäà ïàòîëîãèé.
P.S. Èíñòðóêöèþ «Òðåáîâàíèÿ, ïðåäúÿâëÿåìûå ê êàáèíåòàì îçîíîòåðàïèè» 1998 ã., âûøëþ Âàì ïî E-mail.


Äîáðûé äåíü!
Áóäó Âàì òîæå áëàãîäàðåí, åñëè âûøëèòå ïî e-mail Èíñòðóêöèþ «Òðåáîâàíèÿ, ïðåäúÿâëÿåìûå ê êàáèíåòàì îçîíîòåðàïèè» 1998 ã.,
Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Âëàäèìèð korvet@tis-dialog.ru
  #44  
Ñòàðûé 05.10.2004, 16:03
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,291
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,191 ðàç(à) çà 31,541 ñîîáùåíèé
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Èç íåäàâíåé îçîíîâîé ïåðåïèñêè:

Letter to the Editor

The International Journal of Artificial Organs / Vol. 27 / no. 8, 2004/ pp. 731-732

Ozone therapy seems to be safe, but is it really clinically effective?
L. TYLICKI, B. RUTKOWSKI
Department of Nephrology, Transplantology and Internal Medicine, Medical University of Gdansk, Gdansk - Poland

Dear Editor,
In the March issue of the International Journal of Artificial Organs a comprehensive editorial concerning ozone therapy was published (1). Given that the English language medical literature on this subject is very limited, the idea of the Editors to review the main aspects associated with ozonated autohemotherapy (O3-AHT), the generally used route of ozone implementation should be particularly appreciated. The main concern related to the therapeutic implementation of ozone in medicine is the lack of controlled clinical studies evaluating the safety as well as the clinical effectiveness of this still controversial approach. In this regard, we would like to present some of the results of recent studies performed in our center.
The main criticism related to ozone therapy concerns the oxidative properties of ozone and its potentially harmful influence on cells and biological processes. Since medical ozone is commonly administered as a major O3-AHT during which gas interacts with blood, the possible detrimental effects may involve blood cellular elements and plasma components. To shed more light on this aspect, we performed a series of controlled studies to check the safety of O3-AHT using the therapeutic dose of ozone - 50 µg/mL oxygen-ozone mixture in the patients with peripheral arterial disease chronically treated with dialysis. Although a significant decrease in the glutathione level in erythrocytes was seen, most probably associated with its increased consumption under oxidative conditions, the antioxidant defence system was able to protect the cells against oxidative damaging processes. The plasma concentration of the final products of protein and lipid peroxidation, as well as hemolysis extent, did not change after O3-AHT, when compared to autohemotherapy without
ozone exposure, which served as a control (2). Given the possible role of reactive oxygen species and oxidative stress in the development of arteriosclerosis, the influence of O3-AHT on some processes related to this common pathology were evaluated as well. No changes in the plasma activity of von Willebrand factor, commonly treated as an index of endothelial cell injury, were observed (3). In addition, the degree of spontaneous and agonist-induced platelet aggregation did not differ from that seen after control authohemotherapy (4). Finally, very recent studies (not yet published) revealed that O3-AHT did not induce the inflammation process assessed by C-reactive protein and interleukin-6 plasma level or influence deleteriously the cytotoxic activity of natural killer cells, which represent the first line of cellular innate immunological response.
Although O3-AHT has been used for almost three decades, therapeutical effectiveness is still unproven. The evidence-based medicine approach requires welldesigned controlled studies for this purpose. Given some previous encouraging observations (5, 6), we performed a cross-over controlled study to evaluate the influence of O3-AHT on walking ability in patients with intermittent claudication. The significant prolongation of maximal walking distance by 22.7% and pain-free walking distance by 62.8%, assessed in a standardized march test on a treadmill, was seen (7). Given some design limitations and the fact that the main outcome was determined in treadmill
tests which are based on subjective information given by the patients, the possibility cannot be excluded that a placebo effect, at least in part, plays a role in these favorable effects. Therefore, we consider that the widespread use of O3-AHT in clinical practice should be preceded by further clinical trials involving more objective scientific methods to assess treatment effects.

REFERENCES
1. Di Paolo N, Bocci V, Gaggiotti E. Ozone therapy. Int J Artif Organs 2004; 27: 168-75.
2. Tylicki L, Nieweglowski T, Biedunkiewicz B, et al. The influence of ozonated autohemotherapy on oxidative stress in hemodialyzed patients with atherosclerotic ischemia of lower limbs. Int J Artif Organs 2003; 26: 297-303.
3. Tylicki L, Biedunkiewicz B, Nieweglowski T, et al. Ozonated autohemotherapy in patients on maintenance hemodialysis: Influence on lipid profile and endothelium. Artif Organs 2004; 28: 234-7.
4. Tylicki L, Lizakowski S, Biedunkiewicz B, et al. Platelet function unaffected by ozonated autohemotherapy in chronically hemodialyzed patients. Blood Coagul Fibrinolysis 2004 Oct;15(7):619-22.
5. Biedunkiewicz B, Tylicki L, Lichodziejewska-Niemierko M, Liberek T, Rutkowski B. Ozonetherapy in a dialyzed patient with calcific uremic arteriolopathy. Kidney Int 2003; 64: 367-8.
6. Tylicki L, Nieweglowski T, Biedunkiewicz B, Burakowski S, Rutkowski B. Beneficial clinical effects of ozonated autohemotherapy in chronically dialysed patients with atherosclerotic ischemia of the lower limbs-pilot study. Int J
Artif Organs 2001; 24: 79-82.
7. Biedunkiewicz B, Tylicki L, Nieweglowski T, Burakowski S, Rutkowski B. Clinical efficacy of ozonated autohemotherapy in hemodialyzed patients with intermittent claudication: An oxygen controlled study. Int J Artif Organs 2004; 27: 29-34.
  #45  
Ñòàðûé 05.10.2004, 16:09
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,291
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,191 ðàç(à) çà 31,541 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Letter to the Editor / Reply

The International Journal of Artificial Organs / Vol. 27 / no. 8, 2004/ p. 733

Ozone therapy and clinical efficacy

N. DI PAOLO 1, V. BOCCI 2, E. GAGGIOTTI 1

1 Nephrology, Dialysis and Transplantation Department, University Hospital of Siena, Siena - Italy
2 Institute of General Physiology of the University of Siena, Siena - Italy

Dear Editor

In a recent letter, Dr. L Tylicki and Dr. B. Rutkowski expressed their appreciation of our review on ozone therapy. We, in turn, have been following the work of these enthusiastic Polish nephrologists with great interest, because ozone therapy, which is not sponsored by pharmaceutical industries or health authorities, can only progress with serious basic and clinical studies which depend on our initiative. It is unfortunate that ozone therapy has been discredited by quacks and is surrounded by scepticism and disinterest.
Tylicki and Rutkowski observe that ozone therapy seems to be safe but ask if it is clinically effective. Fifteen years of laboratory and clinical work by V. Bocci and 10 years of the work done together, conceiving and developing Extracorporeal Blood Oxygenation and Ozonation (EBOO), has never revealed any acute or chronic toxicity of ozone therapy, only positive and sometimes astonishing results. Needless to say, we are always careful to use ozone doses within a well established therapeutic range, bearing in mind that “the more the better” is NOT true with ozone. A judicious dose of ozone is necessary to trigger biological and therapeutic responses. The acute oxidative stress induced temporarily reduces the body’s antioxidant capacity to a limited extent.
We are critical of the use of ozone in cosmetic medicine, as there have been no serious studies and direct injection of ozone under the skin is associated with risk of embolism.
The efficacy of ozone therapy is not yet demonstrated as results of the first controlled studies are only now appearing. We are currently testing the efficacy of EBOO for peripheral vasculopathy in controlled studies with rigorous protocols. We agree with the Italian Health Ministry that results of controlled clinical studies are necessary before the validity of ozone therapy can be judged. However, our experience convinces us that ozone therapy can be a valid approach in certain diseases, and we can demonstrate that it is extremely valid in vascular diseases (caused by atherosclerosis, diabetes, uremia etc.) and for healing chronic wounds, such as bed sores and leg ulcers. The combination of parenteral therapy and topical treatment with ozonated oil will be a medical revolution. It is difficult to say when it will happen, because our research proceeds at a snail’s pace compared to official medicine. The same is true of our clinical studies compared to those recently published on statins and TNF inhibitors, which involve thousands of patients and experimenters supported by huge funding.
In any case, we are fortunate to be able to work in peace and in a scientifically correct manner within the public health system, by virtue of recent provisions by the Health Ministry and the Director of our university hospital. The latter has been particularly attentive to the problem and has sustained us and supported our aims over the years. Our answer to our Polish colleagues is therefore a definite YES. We are convinced of the efficacy and innocuousness of ozone therapy, though many methods still need to be investigated in depth, and those already in an advanced state and considered safe need to be tested in controlled clinical trials to obtain approval by government health authorities.

Address for correspondence:
Nicola Di Paolo, MD
Department of Nephrology
University Hospital
Viale Bracci
53100 Siena, Itay
e-mail: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
 



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