Äèñêóññèîííûé Êëóá Ðóññêîãî Ìåäèöèíñêîãî Ñåðâåðà
MedNavigator.ru - Ïîèñê è ïîäáîð ëå÷åíèÿ â Ðîññèè è çà ðóáåæîì
  #1  
Ñòàðûé 01.10.2005, 00:51
Nikishov Nikishov âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 03.07.2004
Ãîðîä: ã.Êàëèíèíãðàä
Ñîîáùåíèé: 6
Nikishov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïëîõóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Smile Îçîí 2005 (Êîíôåðåíöèÿ)

Ãîïîäà, îçîíîòåðàïåâòû! Ïðèãëàøàþ ê îáñóæäåíèþ ìàòåðèàëîâ VI âñåðîññèéñêîé íàó÷íî - ïðàêòè÷åñêîé êîíôåðåíöèè ñ ìåæäóíàðîäíûì ó÷àñòèåì"Îçîí â áèîëîãèè è ìåäèöèíå".
  #2  
Ñòàðûé 10.10.2005, 17:59
nathan.69 nathan.69 âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 23.09.2005
Ãîðîä: Íèæíèé Íîâãîðîä
Ñîîáùåíèé: 4
nathan.69 *
Îòâåò íà ïðèãëàøåíèå

Äàâàéòå îáñóäèì. Êàê âðà÷, ïðèíèìàþùèé îçîí ãîòîâ ïðèíÿòü ó÷àñòèå.
  #3  
Ñòàðûé 10.10.2005, 18:42
Rodionov Rodionov âíå ôîðóìà
Âåòåðàí ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 28.02.2004
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 9,764
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 804 ðàç(à) çà 733 ñîîáùåíèé
Rodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåRodionov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ïðèíèìàþùèé îçîí ÊÓÄÀ?

Êîììåíòàðèè ê ñîîáùåíèþ:
yananshs îäîáðèë(à): po QID
  #4  
Ñòàðûé 11.10.2005, 00:36
E.E. Studentsov E.E. Studentsov âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2003
Ãîðîä: New York, USA
Ñîîáùåíèé: 834
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 6 ðàç(à) çà 4 ñîîáùåíèé
E.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñâåæàê!!!

Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol. 2005 Sep;26(9):762-7. Related Articles, Links


A cluster of hepatitis C virus infections associated with ozone-enriched transfusion of autologous blood in Rome, Italy.

Faustini A, Capobianchi MR, Martinelli M, Abbate I, Cappiello G, Perucci CA.

Department of Epidemiology, Local Health Authority RM-E, via Santa Costanza n. 53, 00198 Rome, Italy. [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

OBJECTIVE: To describe an outbreak of hepatitis C virus (HCV). DESIGN: Retrospective cohort study. SETTING: Outpatient department of a hospital in Rome, Italy. PATIENTS: All 42 patients exposed to ozone therapy by autohemotherapy or intramuscular injection from January to June 2001. METHODS: Epidemiologic investigation, serologic analysis, and virus genotyping. RESULTS: Thirty-one (74%) of the patients agreed to participate in the study. Three (9.7%) had symptoms of HCV infection. This incidence rate was higher than the rate of 1.4 per 100,000 per year in the regional population. Six patients were positive for HCV antibodies and HCV RNA for a prevalence rate of 19.4%, which was much higher than the estimate of 0.9% in the population. Virus genotype 1b was found in two case-patients (one symptomatic) and 2c in four case-patients (two symptomatic), one of whom was known to have an HCV infection since 1986 and could have been the source of infection. The infected patients were all being exposed to ozone-enriched transfusions of autologous blood. Although the specific mode of transmission between patients was not detected, transmission probably occurred during one of the three busiest therapeutic sessions in the 6-month period. CONCLUSIONS: Transmission of HCV infection may occur during medical procedures with limited bleeding. Standard precautions must be applied in any healthcare setting; restricting the number of individuals treated during each therapeutic session could be an effective way of avoiding accidental transmission of infection.

Evid Based Dent. 2005;6(2):34. Related Articles, Links


No reliable evidence that ozone gas stops or reverses tooth decay.

McComb D.

1Director of Comprehensive Care Programme, Faculty of Dentistry, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Data sourcesThe Cochrane Oral Health Group's Trials Register, Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials, Medline and Premedline, Embase, CINAHL (Cumulative Index to nursing and Allied Health Literature)l and the Allied and Complementary Medicine Database were searched. The journal Quintessence was searched by hand and KaVo Dental (Biberach, Germany) manufacturers of HealOzone apparatus were contacted for any additional published or unpublished trials.Study selectionInclusion was assessed independently by at least two reviewers. Trials were only included if they met the following criteria: randomisation in a controlled trial; single surface in vivo carious lesion accessible to ozone application; clear allocation concealment; ozone application to the lesions in the intervention group; no such application of ozone in the control group; and outcomes measured after at least 6 months.Data extraction and synthesisReviewers independently extracted information in duplicate. A paucity of comparable data did not allow meta-analytic pooling of the included studies.ResultsThree trials were included, with a combined total of 432 randomised lesions (137 participants). Forty-two conference papers, abstracts and posters were excluded (from an unknown number of studies). The risk of bias in all studies appeared high. The analyses of all three studies were conducted at the level of the lesion, which is not independent of the person. For this reason, pooling of data was not appropriate or attempted. Individual studies showed inconsistent effects of ozone on caries, across different measures of caries progression or regression. Few secondary outcomes were reported, but one trial reported an absence of adverse events.ConclusionsGiven the high risk of bias in the available studies and lack of consistency between different outcome measures, there is no reliable evidence that application of ozone gas to the surface of decayed teeth stops or reverses the decay process. There is a fundamental need for more evidence of appropriate rigour and quality before the use of ozone can be accepted into mainstream primary dental care or can be considered a viable alternative to current

Int J Biol Macromol. 2005 Jul;36(1-2):61-5. Related Articles, Links


Chemical kinetics measurements on the reaction between blood and ozone.

Cataldo F, Gentilini L.

Soc. Lupi Chemical Research, Via Casilina 1626/A, 00133 Rome, Italy. [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

The pseudofirst-order ozonization rate constant of whole bovine blood has been measured in comparison to that of free haemin. The free prosthetic group haemin (which has also the central iron atom in the oxidized form) shows k values in the range of 0.20-0.03 s(-1) while the haeme groups inside haemoglobin protein and contained in the whole blood sample show slightly lower k values, just in the range of 0.10-0.02 s(-1). It has been found that ozone even with whole blood reacts specifically with haemoglobin of the red cells because it is adsorbed selectively on the iron atoms of the haeme prosthetic groups of haemoglobin. The absorption implies the oxidation of the central iron atom of the haeme groups with formation of methaemoglobin followed by an oxidative fission of the haeme rings. The other blood components do not exert any significant protection to the reaction between ozone and haemoglobin, which appear extremely specific and selective like the reaction between CO or HCN and haemoglobin. By analogy with the behaviour of these other gases ozone may be classified as a blood poison. The results of this work are discussed in the frame of the risks connected to the ozonotherapy and autohaemotherapy involving the blood ozonization of human or animal subjects and the re-injection of ozonized blood into the bodies.

Êîììåíòàðèè ê ñîîáùåíèþ:
nathan.69 îäîáðèë(à): Íèêàêîé ýòî íå ñâåæàê. Íå âìäåë åùå îò ýòîãî äîêòîðà íè îäíîãî âîçðàæåíèÿ ïî ñóùåñòâó. Ýòî ïðîñòî èãðà â ëàïòó.
  #5  
Ñòàðûé 11.10.2005, 08:25
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Âî âñåì ìèðå îïðåäåëåííûé ïðîöåíò íîâûõ èíôèöèðîâàíèé ãåïàòèòîì ïðîèñõîäèò ïðè ïåðåëèâàíèè êðîâè. Íå èñêëþ÷åíî, ÷òî ïðè òåõ èëè èíûõ ñàíèòàðíî-ãèãèåíè÷åñêèõ íàðóøåíèÿõ, òàêîå âîçìîæíî è ïðè ìàíèïóëÿöèÿõ ñ îçîíèðîâàííîé êðîâüþ. Íî óæå íå â ïåðâûé ðàç ñïðàøèâàþ, ïðè÷åì çäåñü ñàìà ÎÒ?
Ïî âòîðîìó ïóíêòó. Íà ýòîì ôîðóìå óæå íåîäíîêðàòíî ñîîáùàëîñü, ÷òî îçîí ïðè êàðèåñå ýòî ðàçðàáîòêà àíãëèéñêèõ ñòîìàòîëîãîâ, êîòîðóþ îíè àêòèâíî ïðîäâèãàþò.  Ðîññèè îíà íå ïðàêòèêóåòñÿ. È, íåñìîòðÿ íà òî, ÷òî èìåííî äëÿ êàðèåñà èìååòñÿ ñàìîå çíà÷èòåëüíîå êîëè÷åñòâî äâîéíûõ, ñëåïûõ, ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûõ ñ íàáëþäåíèåì çà ïàöèåíòàìè ïîñëå ëå÷åíèÿ îò ãîäà è âûøå, ëè÷íî ó ìåíÿ ýòà ìåòîäèêà, ïîêà, âûçûâàåò áîëüøèå ñîìíåíèÿ.
Çà÷åì îïÿòü âîçâðàùàòüñÿ ê ýòîìó âîïðîñó?
Òî æå ìîæíî ñêàçàòü è ïî òðåòüåé ññûëêè.  ñîòûé ðàç îòìå÷àþ, ÷òî ðàññóæäàòü î ñðàâíèòåëüíîì âëèÿíèè îçîíà íà ôîðìåííûå ýëåìåíòû êðîâè áåç òî÷íûõ äîçèðîâîê, êîíöåíòðàöèé – áåññìûñëåííî, áåçãðàìîòíî. Êàê ïðàâèëî, â òàêèõ ðàáîòàõ in vitro èñïîëüçóþòñÿ äîçû çíà÷èòåëüíî ïðåâûøàþùèå èñïîëüçóåìûå ïðè ÎÒ.
Çà÷åì, âîîáùå, ýòîò òîðæåñòâóþùèé «Ñâåæàê!!!» - ïîäáîð ÷åðíóõè, êîãäà ìîäåðàòîð ïðàêòè÷åñêè ïîëíîñòüþ «çàìîðîçèë» ñâîé ôîðóì, ÷òîáû íå ðàçäðàæàòü ìåñòíûõ àâòîðèòåòîâ?

Êîììåíòàðèè ê ñîîáùåíèþ:
yananshs íå îäîáðèë(à):
  #6  
Ñòàðûé 11.10.2005, 08:39
E.E. Studentsov E.E. Studentsov âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2003
Ãîðîä: New York, USA
Ñîîáùåíèé: 834
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 6 ðàç(à) çà 4 ñîîáùåíèé
E.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåE.E. Studentsov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷, à Âû ïðàâäà âåðèòå, ÷òî ÿâëÿåòåñü ìîäåðàòîðîì ýòîãî ôîðóìà?
"Ïðàêòè÷åñêè ïîëíîñòüþ "çàìîðîçèë"" -
"Ìû ñ òîáîþ áåæàëè èç ðàÿ ïðàêòè÷åñêè áîñèêîì" - ïåðë ãðóïïû "×àéô", ïî÷åìó òî èñïîëíÿåòñÿ ñêîðáÿùèì ãîëîñîì.
  #7  
Ñòàðûé 11.10.2005, 19:36
nathan.69 nathan.69 âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 23.09.2005
Ãîðîä: Íèæíèé Íîâãîðîä
Ñîîáùåíèé: 4
nathan.69 *
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò rodionov
Ïðèíèìàþùèé îçîí ÊÓÄÀ?
Óâàæàåìûé êîëëåãà Ðîäèîíîâ. Ïðèíèìàþùèé îçîí - ýòî çíà÷èò ïðèíèìàþùèé îçîí êàê ìåòîä. Íî âîîáùå-òî ÿ ïðè ñîñòàâëåíèè ñîîáùåíèÿ îïèñàëñÿ è âìåñòî "ïðèìåíÿþùèé" íàïèñàë ïðèíèìàþùèé. Ïðîñòèòå âåëèêîäóøíî - â ôîðóìå â èíòåðíåòå ïðèíèìàþ ó÷àñòèå ïåðâûé ðàç. Åñëè äåéñòâèòåëüíî èíòåðåñíî - ìîæåòå ïîñìîòðåòü ðÿä ïóáëèêàöèé êàê â Âåñòíèêå èíòåíñèâíîé òåðàïèè, òàê è â Íèæåãîðîäñêîì ìåäèöèíñêîì æóðíàëå. Äà è â Ðîññèéñêîì ìåäèöèíñêîì æóðíàëå â 2004 ã. áûëè äâå ìîè ñòàòüè. Ïðåäëàãàëîñü îáñóäèòü ìàòåðèàëû êîíôåðåíöèè â Íèæíåì Íîâãîðîäå - âîò è äàâàéòå èõ è îáñóæäàòü, à íå ïðèäèðàòüñÿ ê ñëîâàì.

Êîììåíòàðèè ê ñîîáùåíèþ:
Ìàëèíà Òàíÿ îäîáðèë(à):
  #8  
Ñòàðûé 11.10.2005, 19:46
Àâàòàð äëÿ yananshs
yananshs yananshs âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë æåíñêèé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.02.2003
Ãîðîä: NY
Ñîîáùåíèé: 9,664
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 15
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 56 ðàç(à) çà 51 ñîîáùåíèé
yananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâàæàåìûé Íàòàí,
Íàéòè âàøè ñòàòüè íå ïðåäñòàâëÿåòñÿ âîçìîæíûì, òàê êàê ìû íå çíàåì âàøåãî èìåíè.
  #9  
Ñòàðûé 11.10.2005, 19:55
nathan.69 nathan.69 âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 23.09.2005
Ãîðîä: Íèæíèé Íîâãîðîä
Ñîîáùåíèé: 4
nathan.69 *
Arrow Äëÿ ßíû Ñòóäåíöîâîé.

Âî-ïåðâûõ, ìû áóäåì îáñóæäàòü Íèæåãîðîäñêóþ êîíôåðåíöèþ, èëè ìîè ñòàòüè? Âî-âòîðûõ, ìîÿ ôàìèëèÿ Âåêñëåð, èíèöèàëû Í.Þ. è åñëè õîòèòå, òî èìåÿ ýòó èíôîðìàöèþ, íàéäåòå.
  #10  
Ñòàðûé 11.10.2005, 19:58
Àâàòàð äëÿ yananshs
yananshs yananshs âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë æåíñêèé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.02.2003
Ãîðîä: NY
Ñîîáùåíèé: 9,664
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Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 56 ðàç(à) çà 51 ñîîáùåíèé
yananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyananshs ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñïàñèáî, óâàæàåìûé äîêòîð Âåêñëåð.
  #11  
Ñòàðûé 12.10.2005, 19:46
nathan.69 nathan.69 âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
Ñåðôåð
 
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nathan.69 *
Talking

Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò yananshs
Ñïàñèáî, óâàæàåìûé äîêòîð Âåêñëåð.
Ïîæàëóéñòà, óâàæàåìàÿ äîêòîð Ñòóäåíöîâà ßíà
 


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