#1186
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Êòî òóò ïðî èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêó ãîâîðèò? ×òî ýòî òàêîå, êòî ýòî ïðèäóìàë òàêîå äîìîðîùåííîå íàçâàíèå? Èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêè ïðîñòî íå ñóùåñòâóåò, è íå ñóùåñòâîâàëî ñ ñàìîãî íà÷àëà èðèäîëîãè÷åñêèõ èññëåäîâàíèé. Êòî Âàì ãîâîðèò ïðî ðåíòãåí äèàãíîñòèêó èëè ðàäèîäèàãíîñòèêó, èëè ëàáîðàòîðíóþ äèàãíîñòèêó, èëè áèîõèìè÷åñêóþ äèàãíîñòèêó è ïðî÷åå. Ýòî íå äèàãíîñòèêè, à ìåòîäû èññëåäîâàíèé, êîòîðûå â ñóììå ñâîåé ïîìîãàþò äîêòîðàì Æèâîâó è Åâãåíèþ â ñâîåé ñîâîêóïíîñòè äàâàòü äèàãíîç. Èññëåäîâàíèå, ýòî íèêîãäà íå áûëî è íå áóäåò äèàãíîñòèêîé, ýòî èíñòðóìåíò äëÿ äèàãíîñòèêè. Íå ñïîðþ, ÷òî ýòà ïðîáëåìà êðàñíîé íèòüþ ïðîõîäèò ÷åðåç âñ¸ ñîâåòñêîå çäðàâîîõðàíåíèå, êîãäà ïî îäíîìó ëàáîðàòîðíîìó èññëåäîâàíèþ äàâàëè äèàãíîç.
Medicina Ars Nobilissima lat |
#1187
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Èãîðü,
Íå íàäî çàáàëòûâàòü òåìó. Íåóæåëè Âû ïîëàãàåòå, ÷òî ÿ íå ïîíèìàþ ðàçíèöó ìåæäó îäíèì ìåòîäîì èññëåäîâàíèÿ è äèàãíîñòèêîé êàê äåÿòåëüíîñòüþ è ÷àñòüþ ìåäèöèíñêîé íàóêè. Ðå÷ü òî âåäü òîëüêî ëèøü î òîì, ÷òî äîñòâåðíîñòü èðèäîëîãèè êàê ìåòîäà äèàãíîñòèêè íå âûøå ïîäáðàñûâàíèÿ ìîíåòêè. Âîò è âñå. |
#1188
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ã-æó Æèâîâó
Ïî èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêå áóäåò îòäåëüíàÿ äèñêóññèÿ. Íî íåñêîëüêî ïîçæå. Ñåé÷àñ íà ãëóïîñòè (òèïà áåñåä ñ îòäåëüíûìè òîâàðèùàìè), äàæå "êîíòðîëèðóåìûå" , ó ìåíÿ íå õâàòàåò âðåìåíè. À Âàì äëÿ ñïðàâêè ñîîáùó, ÷òî îäíà èç ïåðâûõ ñòàòåé ïî èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêå áóäåò ïîñâÿùåíà äèàãíîñòèêå ìî÷åêàìåííîé áîëåçíè. Òàê ÷òî ÷èòàéòå ïîêà ëèòåðàòóðó Àëåêñåé, ÷èòàéòå. Õîòÿ è ýòî íå ïàíàöåÿ - "ó÷åíüå ñâåò - à íåó÷åíûõ òüìà". |
#1189
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Èçó÷àòü íè÷åãî íå çíà÷àùèå âåùè...
ß ïðîâåë ïîèñê Medline ÷åðåç ñàéò [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] ïî êëþ÷åâîìó ñëîâó iridology. Ïîëó÷åíî 19 ññûëîê íà ïóáëèêàöèè çà ïîñëåäíèå 30 ëåò. Abstracts äîñòóïíû äëÿ 10 ñòàòåé. Èç íèõ ïîëîæèòåëüíûå âûâîäû îá ýôôåêòèâíîñòè èðèäîëîãèè ñîäåðæàòüñÿ â 1-é ïóáëèêàöèè óêðàèíñêîãî ïðîèñõîæäåíèÿ, îïóáëèêîâàííîé â ðîññèéñêîì æóðíàëå. Åùå îäíà ðàáîòà èç ðîññèéñêîãî èñòî÷íèêà íîñèò íåñêîëüêî ïðîòèâîðå÷èâûé õàðàêòåð (íè äà, íè íåò).  îñòàëüíûõ 8 ïóáëèêàöèÿõ èðèäîëîãèÿ ïðèçíàåòñÿ íè÷åãî íå çíà÷àùèì ìåòîäîì, âåðîÿòíîñòü ïîñòàíîâêè ïðàâèëüíîãî äèàãíîçà ïðè èñïîëüçîâàíèè êîòîðîãî íå ïðåâûøàåò ïðîñòóþ ñëó÷àéíîñòü. Îäíà èç òàêèõ ïóáëèêàöèé ïðèâåäåíà íèæå.
BMJ 1988 Dec 17;297(6663):1578-81 Looking for gall bladder disease in the patient's iris. Knipschild P. Department of Epidemiology and Health Care Research, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands. In alternative health care iridology is used as a diagnostic aid. The diagnosis of gall bladder disease was used to study its validity and interperformer consistency. The presence of an inflamed gall bladder containing gall stones is said to be easily recognised by certain signs in the lower lateral part of the iris of the right eye. Stereo colour slides were made of the right eye. Stereo colour slides were made of the right eye of 39 patients with this disease and 39 control subjects of the same sex and age. The slides were presented in a random order to five leading iridologists without supplementary information. The prevalence of the disease was estimated at 56%. The median validity was 51% with 54% sensitivity and 52% specificity. These results were close to chance validity (iota = 0.03). None of the iridologists reached a high validity. The median interperformer consistency was 60%. This was only slightly higher than chance consistency (kappa = 0.18). This study showed that iridology is not a useful diagnostic aid. PMID: 3147081 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Òåïåðü îñòàåòñÿ ïîäîæäàòü, ÷òî íàø Åâãåíèé ïðèâåäåò â êà÷åñòâå àðãóìåíòà çà èðèäîëîãèþ. Íó å ðåêîìåíäîâàòü èçó÷àòü íè÷åãî íå çíà÷àùèå âåùè... ïóñòü âñÿêóþ àõèíåþ çàó÷èâàþò åâãåíèè, èì âèäèìî áîëüøå íå÷åì çàíÿòüñÿ ïî æèçíè. |
#1190
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×óøü, ïîäîáíóþ âûøåïðèâåäåíîé, íå ÷èòàþ - öåíþ âðåìÿ. Êàê "äåëàþòñÿ" êðèòè÷åñêèå ñòàòüè ïî ãîìåîïàòèè, èãëîòåðàïèè, èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêå óæå ãîâîðèëîñü. Íà ñàìîì î÷åâèäíîì, ÏÐÈ×ÅÌ ÊÎÊÐÀÍÎÂÑÊÎÌ, îáìàíå ïîïàëàñü ïðîô. Ìåëüíè÷åíêî, î ÷åì ìû ñ Âëàäèìèðîì óæå óïîìèíàëè íà ôîðóìå. Ñòàòüÿ çà ïîäïèñÿìè ìåäèêîâ, âûäàþùèõ ñåáÿ çà ãîìåîïàòîâ ñîäåðæàëà ðåçóëüòàòû èññëåäîâàíèÿ ãîìåîòåðàïèè ÎÐÇ òåì ÃÏÑ, ê-ðûé ÍÈÊÎÃÄÀ äëÿ ýòîé öåëè íå èñïîëüçóåòñÿ. Åñòåñòâåííî. ÷òî àëëîïàò. ïðî÷èòàâ òàêîå ñîîáùåíèå. ïðèäåò ê âûâîäó î íåýôôåêòèâíîñòè ãîìåîïàòèè. Íà à äëÿ çíàþùèõ ïðàâäó - ýòî íå áîëåå ÷åì î÷åðåäíîé àëëîïàòè÷åñêèé "êîìàðèíûé óêóñ". Öèòèðóåìîå Âàìè ñîîáùåíèå - òîæå èç èõ ÷èñëà.
Ïî ïîâîäó ëèòåðàòóðû îá îáúåêòèâíûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêè - ïîñìîòðèòå ìîè ññûëêè, ÷òî ÿ äàâàë Ìèõàèëó Þðüåâè÷ó. Îí. êñòàòè. òîæå ïðèâåë â êà÷åñòâå àðãóìåíòà "ïðîòèâ" 2 ñòàòåéêè. Èõ ÷òåíèå îñòàâèëî æàëêîå âïå÷àòëåíèå - àâòîðû ðàáîòàëè ÿâíî ïî ïðèíöèïó àêûíà - ÷òî âèæó, òî è ïèøó - ÷òî íå âèæó - ïèøó òîæå. Íî åñëè íå íàéäåòå ìîè ññûëêè, ñêèíó Âàì çàâòðà íåáîëüøîé ñïèñîê èç òîãî. ÷òî ïîä ðóêîé. À êñòàòè. íå õîòèòå-ëè âñå æå ýêñïåðèìåíò? Çà èìèäæ íå áîéòåñü - ìîæåòå âñå ñâàëèòü "íà íàóêó". |
#1191
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Åâãåíèé,
Ó ìåíÿ åñòü äëÿ Âàñ ïàðà ãëàç. Íà êàêîé e-mail îòïðàâèòü? |
#1192
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Îñíîâíîé íåäîñòàòîê ïðèâåäåííûõ ìíîþ ñòàòåé â ãëàçàõ Åâãåíèÿ - ýòî äåìîíñòðàöèÿ íåñîñòîÿòåëüíîñòè èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêè. Ìåòîäèêà òàì áûëà äîâîëüíî ïðîñòàÿ, íî âåñüìà ýôôåêòèâíàÿ. ß òàê è íå ïîíÿë, êàêèå ó Âàñ Åâãåíèé ïðåòåíçèè. Âàøèõ êîëëåã èðèäîäèàãíîñòîâ ïðîñèëè îïðåäåëèòü åñòü áîëåçíü ïî÷åê èëè íåò. Êðèòåðèåì íàëè÷èÿ òàêîé áîëåçíè áûë óðîâåíü êðåàòèíèíà. Óâû, íî òî÷íîñòü èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêè íå ïðåâûñèëà òî÷íîñòè ïîäáðàñûâàåìîé ìîíåòû. Ïðèâåäåííûå æå Åâãåíèåì ñòàòüè ñòðàäàþò ìåòîäè÷åñêîé áåçãðàìîòíîñòüþ (íåò ðàíäîìèçàöèè è ò.ï.), òàê ÷òî èõ öåííîñòü ðàâíà 0.
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#1193
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ã-íó Æèâîâó
Ìîæíî íà [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] Òàêæå íå áóäó âîçðàæàòü ïðîòèâ èõ ïóáëèêàöèè ïðÿìî íà ôîðóìå. Òàê äàæå áóäåò ëó÷øå - îòêðûòûé ýêñïåðèìåíò ìíå ïî äóøå. Òîëüêî óêàæèòå ïîëîâóþ ïðèíàäëåæíîñòü - à òî áóäåì "ïî-Çàäîðíîâó" èñêàòü ïðîñòàòó ó æåíùèíû. Ì.Þ.Ãèëÿðîâó Îñíîâíîé íåäîñòàòîê ïðèâåäåííûõ Âàìè 2 ñòàòåé - èçíà÷àëüíàÿ çàäàííîñòü íà îòðèöàòåëüíûé ðåçóëüòàò â îäíîì ñëó÷àå ( ÿ, êñòàòè, òàê è íå ìîã ïîíÿòü, ïî÷åìó â êà÷åñòâå êîíòðîëüíîãî êðèòåðèÿ áûë âçÿò òîëüêî îäèí ïîêàçàòåëü è ïðîèãíîðèðîâàíû ïðî÷èå, äà è î ïðîôåññèîíàëèçìå ýòèõ èðèäîëîãîâ ìû ðîâíûì ñ÷åòîì íè÷åãî íå çíàåì) è áåçãðàìîòíîñòü àâòîðîâ â äðóãîé. Ïî ïîâîäó èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêè ìî÷åêàìåííîé áîëåçíè åñòü çíà÷èòåëüíî ëó÷øàÿ ñòàòüÿ: À.À.Ãðåñü, Á.Ê.Ñåðäþê. Èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêà ìî÷åêàìåííîé áîëåçíè. Çäðàâîîõðàíåíèå Áåëîðóññèè. - 1991, ¹ 4. - ñ. 21-23. Íó à íàñ÷åò ñîâðåìåííîãî ôåòèøà - ðàíäîìèçàöèè.... Íå ìîãëè áû Âû ÷åòêî è ÿñíî óêàçàòü, êàê èìåííî íàäî áûëî ðàíäîìèçèðîâàòü "èñõîäíûé ìàòåðèàë" àâòîðàì ïðèâîäèìûõ ìíîé ñòàòåé? Ïðîñâåòèòå, åñëè íå çàòðóäíèò. À ìû ïîòîì ïîñìîòðèì, íàñêîëüêî âñå ýòî îïðàâäàíî â ÄÀÍÍÎÌ ÊÎÍÊÐÅÒÍÎÌ ÈÑÑËÅÄÎÂÀÍÈÈ. P.S: à â ïðèâîäèìûõ Âàìè ñòàòüÿõ ðàíäîìèçàöèÿ áûëà? È óòî÷íèòå, ïîæàëóéñòà, ÷òî îçíà÷àåò ôðàçà " è ïð." â îòíîøåíèè ìîèõ ññûëîê? Åùå êàêèå-òî íåäîñòàòêè? Êàêèå èìåííî? |
#1194
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Óâàæàåìûé Åâãåíèé!
Áûë âçÿò êðèòåðèé, ÿâëÿþùèéñÿ çîëîòûì ñòàíäàðòîì. Åñëè óðîâåíü êðåàòèíèíà ïîâûøåí, çíà÷èò çàáîëåâàíèå ïî÷åê åñòü òî÷íî, èáî ýòî êðèòåðèé äèàãíîçà ïî÷å÷íîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòè. ×òî êàñàåòñÿ ñòàòüè, íà êîòîðóþ Âû ññûëàåòåñü, òî, óâû, íàéòè åå íåðåàëüíî. À äëÿ äèàãíîñòèêè êàìíåé â ïî÷åê ðåêîìåíäóþ Âàì ÓÇÈ. Òî÷íîñòü äèàãíîçà âåñüìà âûñîêà. |
#1195
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Åâãåíèé,
Îòïðàâèë Âàì ïàðó îáåùàííûõ ãëàçîê. Æäó âàøèõ äèàãíîçîâ â ýòîé äèñêóññèè. Îáúåì îòïðàâêè ïîëó÷èëñÿ îêîëî 1 ìá. Ïðèíèìàåò ëè âàø ÿùèê òàêèå îáúåìû? Ïîäòâåðäèòå ôàêò ïîëó÷åíèÿ. |
#1196
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Åâãåíèé è ãëàçà!
Ïîõîæå èñòîðèÿ ñ ãëàçêàìè çàòèõëà. Åâãåíèÿ âèäèìî ÷òî-òî ñìóòèëî, õîòÿ ðåçóëüòàò ýòèõ ãàäàëîê ìîæíî áûëî ïðåäñêàçàòü çàðàíåå. Òóò êàê òî íåêîãäà ïîÿâèâøàÿñÿ íà ôîðóìå ã-æà Îëëñîí èç Øâåöèè ïðèñëàëà ìíå ïèñüìî ñ ãàäàíèÿìè ïî ìîåé ôîòîãðàôèè è ìîåìó "ýíåðãåòè÷åñêîìó ôàíòîìó". Èç áîëåå ÷åì äåñÿòêà ïîñòàâëåííûõ ìíå "äèàãíîçîâ" íåêîå ñîâïàäåíèå èìåëè 2. "Òî÷íîñòü" ìåíÿ ïðîñòî ïîòðÿñëà! Æàëü ÷òî ñ Åâãåíèåì ïîèãðàòü íå óäàëîñü. Îí âèäèìî óâëåêñÿ ÷àêðîâåäåíèåì ñ ã-íîì Ñèìîíîâûì.
Äà, êñòàòè, Åâãåíèé! Âû òóò îáåùàëè íà÷àòü äèñêóññèþ ïî èðèäîëîãèè, ãäå îíà? Åùå ãðîçèëèñü ñòàòüþ ïðèâåñòè ïî èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêå ìî÷åêàìåííîé áîëåçíè. Òîæå çàïÿìÿòîâàëè? |
#1197
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OPS!!!! Doktory opjat nejmetsja......doc , pomnitsja wy prosili ostawit was w pokoe???? I ne nyzno sdes " wyworatsiwatsja" na iznanky......ne fantom, a washe foto, kotoroe na washem sajte, wy dejstwitelno absolytno zdorowy i poetomy, regyljadno w N-Y swoe zdorowhje prowerjaete..?????..... no eto wed ne kazdomy dano!!!! Tak yz ostawte kesary-kesarewo!!!
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#1198
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Ã-æà Îëññîí,
Âî-ïåðâûõ îáçàâåäèòåñü ïîæàëóéñòà êèðèëëèöåé è ïèøèòå íà ðîäíîì äëÿ áîëüøèíñòâà ó÷àñòíèêîâ øðèôòå. Âî-âòîðûõ íàäî áû ïóáëèêîâàòüñÿ ïîä ñâîèì èìåíåì.  òðåòüèõ, íà êà÷åñòâåííóþ ìåäèöèíñêóþ ïîìîùü ìîãóò ðàññ÷èòûâàòü íå òîëüêî òå, êòî ìîæåò îáñëåäîâàòüñÿ â NY, íî è òå êòî ìîæåò ýòî ïîçâîëèòü ñåáå ñäåëàòü â ëþáîì ãîðîäå Ðîññèè. Íå ê ãàäàëêàì æå âðîäå Âàñ õîäèòü (ïóñòü äàæå çàäàðîì). |
#1199
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Wse rawno Wam, doc, kogda nibyd bydet otsen stydo za washe hamskoe powedenie......
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#1200
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[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] Ïî ïîâîäó èðèäîäèàãíîñòèêè ìî÷åêàìåííîé áîëåçíè â Áåëàðóññèè.
Îñîáåííî çàáàâíî ïî÷èòàòü ðàçäåë "Î íàøèõ óñëóãàõ", â êîåì âûÿâëÿåòñÿ óðîâåíü âðà÷åáíîé ãðàìîòíîñòè òîâàðèùåé èç Áåëîðóññêîé èðèäîëîãè÷åñêîé àññîöèàöèè. |