#46
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Öèòàòà:
Ýòîò ôîðóì ïî ÊÀÐÄÈÎËÎÃÈÈ!!! Ãåòü ïîëèòèêó ñ ôîðóìà !!! Öèòàòà:
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#47
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Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
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#48
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Îê! Áîëüøå íå áóäó, åñëè Âàñ ýòî òàê çàäåâàåò
Íîëèïðåë ìåíÿ ïîïóòàë
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Àëåêñàíäð Èâàíîâè÷ ñ ïîæåëàíèÿìè êðåïêîãî çäîðîâüÿ |
#49
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Äîáðîãî âðåìåíè ñóòîê!
Èòàê, óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè, ïðèñòóïèì. 1) Ïðåäëîæåííîå îáñëåäîâàíèå ñîîòâåòñòâóåò Íàöèîíàëüíûì ðåêîìåíäàöèÿì ïî Àà (ÂÍÎÊ) - [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] 2) Routine laboratory tests recommended before initiating therapy include a 12-lead electrocardiogram;urinalysis; blood glucose and hematocrit;serum potassium, creatinine (or the corresponding estimated glomerular filtration rate [eGFR]), and calcium;66 and a lipoprotein profile (after a 9- to 12-hour fast) that includes high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C), and triglycerides... è ò.ä. JNC7 3) Diagnostic procedures are aimed at: (1) establishing blood pressure levels; (2) identifying secondary causes of hypertension; (3) evaluating the overall cardiovascular risk by searching for other risk factors, target organ damage and concomitant diseases or accompanying clinical conditions Routine tests • Plasma glucose (preferably fasting) • Serum total cholesterol • Serum high-density lipoprotein (HDL)-cholesterol • Fasting serum triglycerides • Serum uric acid • Serum creatinine • Serum potassium • Haemoglobin and haematocrit • Urinalysis (dipstick test complemented by urinary sediment examination) • Electrocardiogram Recommended tests • Echocardiogram • Carotid (and femoral) ultrasound • C-reactive protein • Microalbuminuria (essential test in diabetics) • Quantitative proteinuria (if dipstick test positive) • Funduscopy (in severe hypertension) Extended evaluation (domain of the specialist) • Complicated hypertension: tests of cerebral, cardiac and renal function • Search for secondary hypertension: measurement of renin, aldosterone, corticosteroids, catecholamines; arteriography; renal and adrenal ultrasound; computer-assisted tomography (CAT); brain magnetic resonance imaging... è ò.ä. - 2003 European Society of Hypertension – European Society of Cardiology guidelines for the management of arterial hypertension 4) Ñòîèìîñòü ïðåäëîæåííîé ñõåìû â Ìîñêâå - îêîëî 100-150 $. Êîëëåãè, à êàê Âàì óäà¸òñÿ àäåêâàòíî ïîëå÷èòü áîëüíîãî áåç ýëåìåíòàðíîãî îáñëåäîâàíèÿ? Ïîäåëèòåñü îïûòîì. C óâàæåíèåì, Èãîðü Êîëîñ. |
#50
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Öèòàòà:
I agree with you that one should always think of a possibility of a secondary cause of HTN especially in a case of severe HTN in young patient, but please be more specific and do not routinely order tests which have not been proven to have any screening value. Just the mare fact that this can be dirt chip and questionably correct does not grant you with a waiver of using tests according to the indications. As doctor Korsun mentioned the decision is already made, patient needs treatment, so why try to make yourself look more "scientific" by ordering numerouse test. I understand that it could be hard if whose tests are available at your institution for economical reasons. Russian Guidelines that yu qouted Öèòàòà:
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#51
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Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
Ïðîñòî íåìíîãî óäèâëÿåò, êîãäà ìîñêîâñêèå áîëüíûå ïðèõîäÿò óæå ñ ïà÷êîé ãîðìîíàëüíûõ àíàëèçîâ, ê òîìó ñîáðàííûõ êîå-êàê è ñ ïðîòîêîëàìè ÊÒ âñåãî îðãàíèçìà... |
#52
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Îáñëåäîâàíèå áîëüíîãî ïðè ïåðâè÷íîé ïðîôèëàêòèêå ÑÑÇ:
Àíàìíåç. - Ñòåíîêàðäèÿ, ÈÌ, èíñóëüò, ïåðåìåæàþùàÿ õðîìîòà, ÒÈÀ, àíåâðèçìà àîðòû è äð. ïðèçíàêè àòåðîñêëåðîçà. - ÈÌ èëè èíñóëüò ó áëèæàéøèõ ðîäñòâåííèêîâ (ðîäèòåëè, áðàòüÿ, ñåñòðû) â âîçðàñòå äî 60 ëåò. - Ïðèåì ãèïîòåíçèâíûõ, ãèïîëèïèäåìè÷åñêèõ, àíòèòðîìáîòè÷åñêèõ èëè ïðîòèâîäèàáåòè÷åñêèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ. - Êóðåíèå: òèï, ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîñòü, ÷èñëî ñèãàðåò â äåíü. - Èíòåíñèâíîñòü è ÷àñòîòà ôèçè÷åñêîé àêòèâíîñòè. - Ïèùåâîå ïîâåäåíèå. Îñìîòð: - Ðîñò, âåñ, îáõâàò òàëèè. - ÀÄ. - Àêòèâíûé ïîèñê êëèíè÷åñêèõ ïðèçíàêîâ àòåðîñêëåðîçà: àîðòàëüíûå, áåäðåííûå, êàðîòèäíûå, ïîäêîëåííûå øóìû, îòñóòñòâèå èëè ñíèæåíèå ïóëüñà, äèñòðîôè÷åñêèå èçìåíåíèÿ íèæíèõ êîíå÷íîñòåé. Ëàáîðàòîðíûå èññëåäîâàíèÿ: Èññëåäîâàíèå êðîâè íàòîùàê: - Îáùèé õîëåñòåðèí - ËÏÍÏ õîëåñòåðèí - ËÏÂÏ õîëåñòåðèí - Òðèãëèöåðèäû - Ãëþêîçà Äîïîëíèòåëüíûå ìåòîäû (åñëè ïîòðåáóþòñÿ): - ÝÊà â ïîêîå è ïðè íàãðóçêå. - Ëèïîïðîòåèí à1 ïðè âûñîêîì ðèñêå - Ñ – ðåàêòèâíûé áåëîê - 24 ÷àñîâîå ìîíèòîðèðîâàíèå ÀÄ - Äîïïëåðîãðàôèÿ ñîñóäîâ - Íåèíâàçèâíàÿ àíãèîãðàôèÿ íà êîìïüþòåðíîì òîìîãðàôå - Êîðîíàðîãðàôèÿ Ïîçâîëþ íàïîìíèòü, ÷òî âåäóùåå çíà÷åíèå â ïîñòàíîâêå äèàãíîçà èìååò îïðîñ æàëîá, ñáîð àíàìíåçà, îñìîòð. Æàëü, ÷òî ýòè ïóíêòû êòî-òî çàìåíÿåò íà ÊÒ âñåãî òåëà
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Àëåêñàíäð Èâàíîâè÷ ñ ïîæåëàíèÿìè êðåïêîãî çäîðîâüÿ |
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#53
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îôôòîïèê...
Óâàæàåìûé Àíòîí, õîòèòå òåëåôîí÷èê, ãäå ÊÒ íà ñïèðàëüíîì àïïàðàòå ñòîèò 1200 ð. è áåç î÷åðåäè? |
#54
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Ñïàñèáî, Ìèõàèë.. ìû óæ ê ñâîèì ïðèâûêëè. Äåëî äàæå íå ñòîëüêî â êà÷åñòâå àïïàðàòà, ñêîëüêî â òîì, ÷òî çà êîíñîëüþ ñèäèò. Òàê èíîãäà íàäîåäàåò ÷èòàòü ïîýòè÷åñêèå îïèñàíèÿ íà òåìó ãèïåðïëàçèðîâàííûõ íàäïî÷å÷íèêîâ ñ "ìíîæåñòâåííûìè àäåíîìàìè 3-5 ìì"..
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#55
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Ñìåøíî! Î÷åíü ïîâåñåëèëñÿ, óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè!
Îñîáåííî íàä ïîñëåäíèì ïóíêòîì îá "ýêîíîìè÷åñêèõ" ïðè÷èíàõ, ðàäè êîòîðûõ äåëàþòñÿ èññëåäîâàíèÿ... Äàæå ïîîáèæàëñÿ íåêîòîðîå âðåìÿ, íåäîëãî.. Ïîòîì ïîñåòèë ñàéò Àëåêñàíäðà Èâàíîâè÷à, ïîñìîòðåë íà ôîòîãðàôèþ ñ Èâàíîì è ðàññëàáèëñÿ. 1. Õîòåëîñü áû îáñóæèòü äðóãîé âîïðîñ, êîëëåãè, êîãäà æå ìû íà÷í¸ì ñëóøàòü äðóã äðóãà, à íå áëèñòàòü ñîáñòâåííîé íà÷èòàííîñòüþ? Áîëüíîé (Äìèòðèé) çàäàë âîïðîñ: êàê êóïèðîâàòü ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèé êðèç. Ïðîñòîé è ïîíÿòíûé. Íà ñòðàíèöàõ ôîðóìà ðàçâåðíóëàñü áóðíàÿ äèñêóññèÿ î öåëåñîîáðàçíîñòè íàçíà÷åíèÿ ãèïîòåíçèâíîãî ïðåïàðàòà ïåðâîãî ðÿäà. Íàä ýòèì "áûòü èëè íå áûòü" êàðäèîëîãè ëîìàëè êîïüÿ äîñòàòî÷íî äîëãî, ïîêà íå óñïîêîèëñÿ - "íàäî ñíèæàòü ÀÄ êàê òàêîâîå" (ýòè ñëîâà ëè÷íî ñëûøàë îò Ãóðàìà Ãðèãîðüåâè÷à Àðàáèäçå ïîñëå îäíîé èç åãî áëåñòÿùèõ ëåêöèé; íè÷åãî íîâîãî, íî ýòî áûëî ñêàçàíî ïðèìåðíî çà ãîä äî îïóáëèêîâàíèÿ òðàéëà HOT). 2. Ìîé ñïè÷ î öåëÿõ è ïëàíàõ îáñëåäîâàíèÿ/ëå÷åíèÿ áûë íàïðàâëåí íà èíôîðìèðîâàííîñòü áîëüíîãî. Îí èìååò ëèøü êîñâåííîå îòíîøåíèå ê êóïèðîâàíèþ ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèõ êðèçîâ, ò.ê. àäåêâàòíî ëå÷åííàÿ Àà ðåäêî âûäà¸ò êðèçû. Ïðèìåíåíèå òð¸õ "Ê" â 99% ñëó÷àåâ ïîçâîëÿåò áîëüíîìó ñàìîìó ñïðàâèòüñÿ ñ ïîäú¸ìîì ÀÄ è èçáåæàòü äîïîëíèòåëüíîé âðà÷åáíîé ïîìîùè. Íà âñå ïåðå÷èñëåííûå âîïðîñû êàæäûé äåíü ïðèõîäèòñÿ ïîëó÷àòü îòâåòû, ïðè÷¸ì áåñåäà ñ áîëüíûì ïðîõîäèò èìåííî â ýòîì ðóñëå - ÷¸òêèå îòâåòû íà ÷¸òêî ïîñòàâëåííûå âîïðîñû. Íåîáõîäèìîñòü â ïðîâåäåíèè ÊÒ íàäïî÷å÷íèêîâ êðàéíå ðåäêà, âîò òàê íàâñêèäêó äàæå íå ìîãó âñïîìíèòü, êîãäà ïîñëåäíèé ðàç âîçíèêàëà òàêàÿ íåîáõîäèìîñòü. 3. Ïî êàæäîìó ñëó÷àþ ðóòèííîãî îáñëåäîâàíèÿ äàæå ñïîðèòü íå õî÷åòñÿ. À ãëàâíîå íèêòî âåäü íå óèâåðæäàåò, ÷òî íîðìàëüíûé ðàçãîâîð ñ áîëüíûì - î÷åíü âàæíàÿ ÷àñòü ëå÷åíèÿ. Ýòî ïðîñòî èìåëîñü â âèäó "ïî óìîë÷àíèþ". Êòî-òî íà÷èíàåò ëå÷èòü áîëüíîãî áåç ÝÊÃ, êòî-òî áåç ìîíèòîðèðîâàíèÿ ÀÄ (ïðîøó ïðîùåíèÿ, íî ýòî ñôåðà ìîèõ èíòåðåñîâ, ìîãó ñêèíóòü ëèòåðàòóòó, äàéòå mail) è ò.ä. - óäà÷è! Êîãäà òû îäèí íà îäèí ñ áîëüíûì, âðà÷ â çàâåäîìî âûèãðàøíîé ñèòóàöèè, òîëüêî âðà÷ âëàäååò èíôîðìàöèåé è ñàì ïðèíèìàåò ðåøåíèå. Õîòèòå áîðîòüñÿ ñ "âåòðÿíûìè ìåëüíèöàìè" (ãèïåðòîíèÿ "áåëîãî õàëàòà", ýôôåêò "áåëîãî õàëàòà" è ò.ä.) - ôëàã âàì â ðóêè. Õîòåëîñü áû ïîäåëèòüñÿ ñëåäóþùèì íàáëþäåíèåì: íà ìîé âçãëÿä, ñàìàÿ áîëüøàÿ ïðîáëåìà â ëå÷åíèè áîëüíîãî ñ ãèïåðòîíèåé - ýòî åãî ïðèâåðæåííîñòü ê ëå÷åíèþ. ׸ðòà ñ äâà íåêîòîðûì îáúÿñíèøü, ÷òî ãèïåðòîíèþ íàäî ëå÷èòü! È âåäü íå áîëèò, íå êîëåò è íå ÷åøåòñÿ! Çà÷åì æå ìíå âñþ æèçíü ïèòü òàáëåòêè?! À ÷òî ïðî÷èòàë íàø ïàöèåíò íà ñòðàíèöàõ ôîðóìà? Äà ýòè äîõòîðà ìåæäó ñîáîé íå ìîãóò äîãîâîðèòüñÿ êàê è ÷åì ëå÷èòü... È âñÿ ðàáîòà åãî êàðäèîëîãà ïî ïðèâåðæåííîñòè áîëüíîãî ê ëå÷åíèþ êîòó ïîä õâîñò. Ïîòîìó ÷òî ó Àëåêñàíäðà Èâàíîâè÷à ÿçûê ÷åøåòüñÿ è ñëîâà ðâóòüñÿ íà âîëþ. Ïðåäñòàâëÿþ, êàê À.È. õìûêàåò â ýòîì ìåñòå è íàáèâàåò ïîñòóëàò î ïðàâå áîëüíîãî íà èíôîðìàöèþ. Òàê íèêòî è íå îòáèðàåò ó áîëüíîãî ïðàâà íà âûáîð è èíôîðìèðîâàííîñòü. Íà ñåãîäíÿøíèé äåíü áîëüøèíñòâî êàðäèîëîãîâ äîãîâîðèëîñü, ÷òî äåéñòâèòåëüíî âàæåí ñàì ôàêò ñíèæåíèÿ ÀÄ, à íå êîíêðåòíûé ãèïîòåíçèâíûé ïðåïàðàò. Íó íå íàøëè ïîêà ïàíàöåè! 4. Íà ôîðóìå ïëîõî ñìîòðÿòñÿ äëèííûå ðå÷è, çàêðóãëÿþñü, ãîòîâ îáñóäèòü êîíêðåòíûå âîïðîñû ïî ñóùåñòâó. Ïðîñüáà - áåç ëè÷íûõ îñêîðáëåíèé. Îñíîâíàÿ öåëü - âûÿñíèòü äëÿ ñåáÿ ëè÷íî êàêèå-òî ìîìåíòû. Âåê æèâè, êàê ãîâîðèòñÿ... Ñïàñèáî çà âíèìàíèå )) |
#56
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À ÿ ïðîòèâ òðåõ "Ê", ò.ê. ñðåäè íèõ åñòü òàêèå òàáëåòêè, îò êîòîðûõ ëþäè ìðóò, à íå âûçäîðàâëèâàþò (êîðèíôàð, îí æå íèôåäèïèí).
È åùå - êðèçû íóæíî ïðåäîòâðàùàòü, à íå êóïèðîâàòü. Êðèç - ýòî óæå ïî÷òè èíñóëüò...
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Àëåêñàíäð Èâàíîâè÷ ñ ïîæåëàíèÿìè êðåïêîãî çäîðîâüÿ |
#57
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Óâàæàåìûé Èãîðü, çäåñü òàê áûâàåò, ÷òî âîïðîñû ïàöèåíòîâ ïåðåðàñòàþò â äèñêóññèè êîëëåã; ýòî íîðìàëüíî... è áûâàåò î÷åíü ïîëåçíî
ß äóìàþ, ÷òî êàñàòåëüíî îáñëåäîâàíèÿ ãèïåðòîíèêîâ â æèçíè âñå ìû äåéñòâóåì ïðèìåðíî îäèíàêîâî. Ïðîñòî äîñòàòî÷íî ðàñïðîñòðàíåííàÿ ïðàêòèêà (â Ìîñêâå âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå) ïðîâåäåíèÿ íåîïðàâäàííî øèðîêîãî êðóãà îáñëåäîâàíèé íåñêîëüêî íàñòîðàæèâàåò... Èíîãäà ìàòåðèàë, ðàññ÷èòàííûé íà èíôîðìèðîâàíèå ïàöèåíòà (äà, íàäî èñêëþ÷àòü âòîðè÷íûå ÀÃ) ìîæåò áûòü âîñïðèíÿò êàê ðóêîâîäñòâî ê äåéñòâèþ (äîêòîð, à ïî÷åìó âû ìíå íå ñäåëàëè ÓÇÄà ïî÷å÷íûõ àðòåðèé!). Òåïåïðü, ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèõ êðèçîâ. Åñëè ìíå íå èçìåíÿåò ïàìÿòü, íèãäå â íàöèîíàëüíûõ (çàðóáåæíûõ) ðåêîìåíäàöèÿõ (åñëè îøèáàþñü, ïîïðàâüòå!) íå ïðîïèñàí ÷åòêî ðàçäåë ïî hypertensive urgency/emergency ñ òàêòèêîé ëå÷åíèÿ. Âûøåë, êñòàòè, âòîðîé ïåðåñìîòð íàöèîíàëüíûé ðåêîìåíäàöèé ÂÍÎÊ, ãäå òàêîé ðàçäåë åñòü. Öèòàòà:
Âîò ýòîò äîêóìåíò ìîæíî îáñóæäàòü. Çàìåòüòå, íåôèäèïèí çäåñü ïîêà ôèãóðèðóåò. Âèäèìî, îòå÷åñòâåííûå ýêñïåðòû ïî êàêèì-òî ïðè÷èíàì íå ñî÷ëè íóæíûì ïðèíÿòü âî âíèìàíèå çàáóãîðíûå ìåòà-àíàëèçû |
#58
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1. Àëåêñàíäð Èâàíîâè÷, êèíüòå ññûëêó, ãäå íàïèñàíî, ÷òî êóïèðîâàíèå íåîñëîæí¸ííîãî (áåç îò¸êà ë¸ãêèõ, ÒÈÀ è ò.ä.) ïîâûøåíèÿ ÀÄ êîðîòêîäåéñòâóþùèì ÀÊ íèôåäèïèíîì (10 ìã ðàçæåâàòü, ïîä ÿçûê) ìîæåò ëèøàòü áîëüíûõ æèçíè. Ïî÷òè êàæäûé äåíü ýòèì çàíèìàþñü è äàæå íå ïîäîçðåâàë íàñêîëüêî ýòî îïàñíî...
2. Ìíå íå óäàëîñü âñòðåòèòü íå òî ÷òî ìåòà-àíàëèçà, à äàæå îäíîãî ïðîñòî ÷¸òêî îïèñàííîãî êëèíè÷åñêîãî ñëó÷àÿ ãèáåëè áîëüíîãî ñ êðèçîì îò íèôåäèïèíà. Áóäó î÷åíü çàèíòåðèñîâàí â ïîëó÷åíèè ëþáîé èíôîðìàöèè. 3. ×òî áû Âû ëè÷íî ïîñîâåòîâàëè áîëüíîìó â àìáóëàòîðíûõ óñëîâèÿõ ïðè íåýôôåêòèâíîñòè êàïòîïðèëà (íå äåéñòâóåò ïî÷òè ó êàæäîãî ÷åòâ¸ðòîãî-ïÿòîãî)? Êîíêðåòíî: íàçâàíèå ëåêàðñòâà, äîçû è ñïîñîá ïðè¸ìà? Ñ óâàæåíèåì Èãîðü Êîëîñ. |
#59
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Aliya Fouzi Mansoor, PharmD and Laura A. von Hagel Keefer, PharmD The Dangers of Immediate-Release Nifedipine for Hypertensive Crises \\ Pharmacy and Therapeutics July 2002 • Vol. 27 No. 7
Èãîðü, åñëè äàäèòå ìåéë (ìîæíî â ïðèâàò), ÿ Âàì pdf-êó âûøëþ. Ðåñïåêò Âàäèìó Âàëåðüåâè÷ó, ýòî îí íàñ ïîëíûìè òåêñòàìè ñíàáæàåò.. |
#60
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Ïî ïðàâäå ãîâîðÿ, ìû íèôåäèïèí ïîêà ïðèìåíÿåì... âïëîòü äî îñîçíàíèÿ íàïèñàííîãî è ïîëó÷åíèÿ äîïîëíèòåëüíûõ ðåçóëüòàòîâ. Íî çâîíî÷åê óæå, ïîõîæå, ïðîçâó÷àë...
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