#46
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Öèòàòà:
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#47
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Óâàæàåìûé Íèêîëàé Àíäðååâè÷, ÿ â êóðñå òîãî, ÷òî ÂÑÐ – íåçàâèñèìûé ïðåäèêòîð âíåçàïíîé è îáùåé ñìåðòè. È ðåçóëüòàòû ATRAMI è GISSI-2 ôèãóðèðóþò â ìîåì ëèòîáçîðå. Íî ìíå òàêæå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî îäíîôàêòîðíûé àíàëèç – ýòî â÷åðàøíèé äåíü. Èñïîëüçîâàíèå ìíîãîôàêòîðíûõ ìîäåëåé ñóùåñòâåííî ïîâûøàåò òî÷íîñòü ïðîãíîçà, à ñîâðåìåííûå ñòàòèñòè÷åñêèå ïàêåòû ïîçâîëÿþò áåç òðóäà ïîäîáðàòü îïòèìàëüíîå ñî÷åòàíèå ýòèõ ôàêòîðîâ.
ß òàêæå ïðîäîëæàþ íàñòàèâàòü íà òîì, ÷òî çíàíèå ïðîãíîçà ñàìî ïî ñåáå ïðàêòè÷åñêîìó âðà÷ó íå èíòåðåñíî áåç âîçìîæíîñòè íà ýòîò ïðîãíîç ïîâëèÿòü. Ïðèìåðû èç ñóäåáíîé ïðàêòèêè íå î÷åíü âïå÷àòëÿþò. Ñäàåòñÿ ìíå, ÷òî «ëèøíèé èíäåêñ» íå ïîìîæåò â íàøåì ñóäå – ñàìîì áàñìàííîì ñóäå â ìèðå ×òî æå äî "ìèîêàðäèàëüíûõ ïðè÷èí" (òåðìèí ÿ ïîäîáðàë íå î÷åíü óäà÷íûé - ñìûñë â òîì, ÷òî ýòî ïðè÷èíû ìåñòíûå, íå ñâÿçàííûå ñ ñàìîé ÂÍÑ), òî ýòî, íàïðèìåð, èøåìèÿ ñèíóñîâîãî óçëà èëè ñâÿçàííàÿ ñ òîé æå èøåìèåé ãèáåëü ÷àñòè ðåöåïòîðîâ â íåì. Òî åñòü ïåðâè÷íû çäåñü íå èçìåíåíèÿ ñàìîé ÂÍÑ, à ýôôåðåíòíîå è ýôôåêòîðíîå çâåíî, ÷òî, òåì íå ìåíåå, ïðèâåäåò ê ñíèæåíèþ ÂÑÐ è ïîâëå÷åò âñÿêîãî ðîäà ñïåêóëÿöèè. À Âû íå ñ÷èòàåòå, ÷òî â èøåìèçèðâàííîì ìèîêàðäå ðåàêöèÿ íà âåãåòàòèâíûå âîçäåéñòâèÿ ìîæåò áûòü íàðóøåíà äàæå ïðè óñëîâíî íîðìàëüíîì òîíóñå ñàìîé ÂÍÑ? Âïðî÷åì, âñå ýòî äåìàãîãèÿ, èìåþùàÿ ìàëî îáùåãî ñ ðåàëüíîé ïðàêòèêîé. Öèòàòà:
Èëè Âû èìåëè â âèäó òî, ÷òî ðåçóëüòàòû îòäåëüíûõ ïðîãíîñòè÷åñêèõ ðàáîò äîëæíû áûòü ìíîãîêðàòíî âîñïðîèçâåäåíû? Òîãäà ïîíÿòíî. |
#48
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Öèòàòà:
Äîñòàòî÷íî ñëîæíî ó ïàöèåíòîâ ïîñëå 40 ëåò ïîäîáðàòü íó î÷åíü ñîïîñòàâèìûå ãðóïïû ïî îñíîâíûì èçâåñòíûì ôàêòîðàì ðèñêà. Íàïðèìåð, èäåíòè÷íûå ïî ìíîãèì ïîêàçàòåëûì äâå ãðóïïû áîëüíûõ ñ ÈÌ, îòëè÷àþùèåñÿ òîëüêî ïî ïîêàçàòåëÿì ÂÑÐ. Íóæíî èëè î÷åíü ìíîãî áîëüíûõ, èëè î÷åíü äëèòåëüíûé ñðîê íàáëþäåíèÿ. Êðîìå òîãî, ðåçóëüòàòû íàó÷íûõ ðàáîò/ïðîòîêîëîâ/èññëåäîâàíèé äîëæíû áûòü àïðîáèðîâàíû è ïîäòâåðæäåíû â ïðàêòèêå. Êàê ãîâîðèòñÿ, "â ðóêàõ äèññåðòàíòà ìåòîäèêà ðàáîòàåò âåëèêîëåïíî". |
#49
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Öèòàòà:
Ïîñëå ðàçúÿñíåíèÿ "ìèîêàðäèàëüíûõ ïðè÷èí" ãîòîâ ñ Âàìè ñîãëàñèòüñÿ, çà èñêëþ÷åíèåì ðàçâå ÷òî «ñâÿçàííàÿ ñ òîé æå èøåìèåé ãèáåëü ÷àñòè ðåöåïòîðîâ â íåì». Âåðîÿòíî, èìåëàñü ââèäó ãèáåëü âåãåòàòèâíûõ îêîí÷àíèé? È âîâñå âñå ýòî íå äåìàãîãèÿ. Òîëüêî òàê, â ïîøàãîâîì ðåæèìå ðàññìîòðåíèÿ, íà÷èíàåò ïîÿâëÿòüñÿ ÿñíîñòü â ïîíèìàíèè îñíîâíûõ çâåíüåâ áàðîðåôëåêñà, ÷òî äàåò óâåðåííîñòü â èíòåðïðåòàöèè ÂÐÑ-èñïûòàíèé. Õîòÿ, ïîâòîðþñü, äëÿ ìåíÿ èíòåðåñíåå íå êëèíè÷åñêèå èíòåðïðåòàöèè, à ôèçèîëîãèÿ ïðîèñõîäÿùåãî per se. |
#50
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If you have nine abnormal tests and a normal ejection fraction, then your risk may be about 5% instead of 3%. And if you have an abnormal ejection fraction and everything else is normal, your risk is down from 30% to 25%. Who cares? You're still stuck (c)
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#51
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Èíòåðåñíîå ÿâëåíèå. Ïî÷òè òûñÿ÷à ÷åëîâåê çàãëÿíóëà â ýòó òåìó (âåñîìûé ïîêàçàòåëü!), à äèñêóññèÿ çàìåðëà è íå ðàçâèâàåòñÿ. Òî åñòü èíòåðåñ åñòü è âåñüìà âåëèê, à âîò âîïðîñîâ íåò. Çàãàäêà.
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#52
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to Tarsky
Ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî çàãàäêà ýòà ðåøåòñÿ âåñüìà ïðîñòî. Íà ìîé âçãëÿä, áîëüøèíñòâî èç âðà÷åé ïîñåùàþùèõ ýòîò ôîðóì - êëèíèöèñòû Ïðàêòèêè (èìåííî ñ áîëüøîé áóêâû!). Ìåòîäèêà æå îöåíêè ÂÐÑ íà äàííûé ìîìåíò îò êëèíè÷åñêîãî ïðèìåíåíèÿ "îòîðâàíà" è ñóùåñòâóåò êàê "âåùü â ñåáå", à ïîñêîëüêó íåò àäåêâàòíîãî êëèíè÷åñêîãî ïðèìåíåíèÿ - íåò íè âîïðîñîâ, íè îñîáîé ïîòðåáíîñòè îáñóæäåíèÿ! Âîò åñëè áû ýòî áûë ôîðóì ñ ïðåîáëàäàíèåì ôèçèîëîãîâ... |
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#53
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×òî, èç òûñÿ÷è Ïðàêòèêîâ íåò íè îäíîãî, çíàêîìîãî ñ ôèçèîëîãèåé?!
Íàâåðíîå, äàâíî ïîðà ïîïûòàòüñÿ îáúÿñíèòü ñåáå è ìèðó, ïî÷åìó æå ÂÑÐ è HRV æèâóò òàêîé ðàçíîé æèçíüþ. Âåäü ðîæäåíèå ñåñòåð áûëî áëèçêèì ïî âðåìåíè, íî ôàêò ñîçðåâàíèÿ èäåé äåðæàëñÿ â íåêîòîðîì ñåêðåòå, ïîñêîëüêó òàì ýòèì çàíèìàëèñü â NASA, à çäåñü – â ÈÌÁÏ, êîòîðîå òàêæå ðåøàëî ïðîáëåìû êîñìîíàâòèêè íà çàðå åå ðàçâèòèÿ. Ñìûñë áûë â òîì, ÷òîáû îöåíèòü ñîñòîÿíèå êîñìî-(àñòðî-)íàâòà ïî ìèíèìóìó ïàðàìåòðîâ ìàêñèìàëüíî îïåðàòèâíî. Ïî ìåðå òîãî, êàê îáå ñòîðîíû ñòàëè «îòêðûâàòü êàðòû», èäåè ñòàëè îâëàäåâàòü ìàññàìè. Òîëüêî ýòî âõîæäåíèå â ìàññû èçíà÷àëüíî áûëî ðàçëè÷íî. Êîíöåïöèè HRV èñõîäèëè èç óíèâåðñèòåòñêèõ ëàáîðàòîðèé ó íèõ è ÷åðåç àïïàðàòû, ñîáðàííûå íà êîëåíêå – ó íàñ. Õîðîøî ïîìíþ òå (ïî÷òè áûëèííûå!) âðåìåíà, êîãäà «òåõíàðè» ãîâîðèëè: «Ñïåêòðàëüíûé àíàëèç – ýòî î÷åíü ïðîñòî!». ×òîáû ïîëó÷èòü âåëè÷èíó êàðäèîèíòåðâàëîâ íóæíî áûëî ñîîðóäèòü íåêîå ñàìîäåëüíîå óñòðîéñòâî, ïîñêîëüêó íè îäèí êàðäèîãðàô íå èìåë öèôðîâîãî âûõîäà, äà è àíàëîãîâûå î÷åíü ðåäêî. È, âåäü ÷òî èíòåðåñíî, òå òåõíàðè ÷òî-òî äàæå è ñîîðóæàëè, ðàññ÷èòûâàëè è îòîáðàæàëè. À äàëüøå íà÷èíàëîñü (äà è òåïåðü ïðîäîëæàåòñÿ) èíòåðåñíàÿ òåíäåíöèÿ: òåõíàðè ïîëó÷àþò íåêèå ãðàôèêè è, âñåðüåç óâëåêøèñü ïðîáëåìîé, ïûòàþòñÿ ñòðîèòü ôèçèîëîãè÷åñêèå êîíöåïöèè è óìîçàêëþ÷åíèÿ. Äîêòîðà æå, ãëÿäÿ íà ïîëíóþ çàãàäî÷íîñòü ïðîèñõîäÿùåãî äåéñòâà, æäóò îò òåõíàðåé è ðåêîìåíäàöèé ïî äàëüíåéøåìó èñïîëüçîâàíèþ ïîëó÷àåìûõ äàííûõ, ïîñêîëüêó íàïðÿ÷üñÿ è ïîñòè÷ü òåõíè÷åñêèå ðåøåíèÿ è ìàòåìàòè÷åñêèå ïîäõîäû èì (íó, íå âñåì, à â ïîäàâëÿþùåì áîëüøèíñòâå) êàæåòñÿ íåðåàëüíûì. |
#54
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Î÷ ñåðüåçíîå îáñóæäåíèå... Ìíå áû óçíàòü, åñòü ëè èíòåðåñíûå ññûëêè ïî èçó÷åíèþ âàðèàáèëüíîñòè ñåðäå÷íîãî ðèòìà ó áîëüíûõ ñ ãèïîãîíàäèçìîì???
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#55
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Å-å-å-å-åñòü!!!!!!
Öèòàòà:
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#56
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÷åñòíî ïðèçíàþñü ââåë ïîèñêîâûé çàïðîñ òîëüêî èç ëþáâè ê èñêóññòâó, íå îæèäàÿ îòâåòà, íî è åòî îêàçûâàåòñÿ åñòü
ermis N, Deniz F, Kepez A, Kara B, Azal O, Kutlu M. Baskent University, Adana Teaching and Medical Research Center, Cardiology Department, 01250 Yuregir, Adana, Turkey. BACKGROUND: There is little data available regarding the effects of male sex hormones on cardiac autonomic function. The aim of this study is to evaluate the association between hormones of male hypothalamo-pitiutary-gonadal axis and cardiac autonomic function by comparing heart rate variability (HRV) parameters of young male idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism patients with those of healthy controls. METHODS: The study consisted of 22 male idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism patients (mean age 20.8+/-1.2years) and the same number of age-matched healthy male controls (mean age 21.0+/-1.5years). A 24-hour Holter monitoring was performed to assess the time and frequency-domain parameters. The HRV parameters of patients and control groups were compared, and possible associations between levels of tested hormones and HRV parameters were evaluated. RESULTS: The standard deviation of all NN intervals (SDNN), standard deviation of the averages of NN intervals in all 5min segments (SDANN), power in low frequency range (LF, ms(2)) and power in high frequency range (HF, ms(2)) values of patients were significantly lower compared to those of controls (147.47+/-56.16 vs. 193.63+/-40.89; 138.31+/-57.64 vs. 190.15+/-43.94; 397.8+/-236.7 vs. 491.5+/-208.4; and 133.6+/-97.4 vs. 198.5+/-91.6 respectively; p<0.05 for all). Significant negative correlations were observed between serum FSH, LH and testosterone levels and most of the HRV parameters. CONCLUSIONS: Deficiency in the male hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal axis seems to adversely affect cardiac autonomic modulation with increased sympathetic and decreased parasympathetic components of HRV. PMID: 19766543 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] |
#57
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À âîîáùå ÌÊÁ òàêàÿ áîëüøàÿ, åñòü åùå ñòîëüêî áîëåçíåé, ïðè êîòîðûõ ÂÑÐ íå èçó÷àëàñü...
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