#61
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#62
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#63
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Òîãäà ó íàñ ñ Âàìè ïî ýòîìó âîïðîñó ñîâåðøåííî îäèíàêîâàÿ ïîçèöèÿ. Ãëàâíîå, ÷òîáû íå õèðóðãè, êàê ñåé÷àñ â Ðîññèè. À óæ êàê èìåííî áóäåò îñóùåñòâëÿòüñÿ òåðàïåâòè÷åñêàÿ ïîääåðæêà, (îáó÷åíèå êàðäèîëîãîâ èëè òåðàïåâòîâ ìåòîäàì ñîñóäèñòîé äèàãíîñòèêè èëè ñîçäàíèå îòäåëüíîé òåðàïåâòè÷åñêîé ñïåöèàëèçàöèè "Àíãèîëîãèÿ"), ýòî óæå çàâèñèò îò ñòðàíû. ß ëè÷íî ïðèíöèïèàëüíîé ðàçíèöû íå âèæó. Ãëàâíîå, ÷òîáû ìåäèêàìåíòîçíàÿ òåðàïèÿ ïîäáèðàëàñü è êîððåêòèðîâàëàñü íà òîì æå óðîâíå, íà êàêîì ïîäáèðàþò è êîððåêòèðóþò òåðàïèþ ñâîèì ïàöèåíòàì, íàïðèìåð, õîðîøèå êàðäèîëîãè.
Ñ íåòåðïåíèåì æäó îáñóæäåíèÿ îòðàæåííûõ âîëí. |
#64
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Íà ñàìîì äåëå, Peripheral Arterial Disease íåçàñëóæåííî îáèæåí òåðàïåâòè÷åñêèì âíèìàíèåì.
Èíòóèòèâíî êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî ÈÁÑ ãîðàçäî îïàñíåå, íå òàê ëè? Áüþñü îá çàêëàä, ÷òî ïîäàâëÿåùåå áîëüøèíñòâî âðà÷åé ïîñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî ñìåðòíîñòü ó ïàöèåíòîâ ñ ÈÁÑ âûøå, ÷åì ó ïàöèåíòîâ ñ êàêèìè-òî òàì íèêîìó íåèíòåðåñíûìè ïîðàæåíèÿìè ñîñóäîâ êîíå÷íîñòåé. À âîò Âàì JAMA. 2007 Mar 21;297(11):1197-206. One-year cardiovascular event rates in outpatients with atherothrombosis.Steg PG, Bhatt DL, Wilson PW, D'Agostino R Sr, Ohman EM, Röther J, Liau CS, Hirsch AT, Mas JL, Ikeda Y, Pencina MJ, Goto S; REACH Registry Investigators. Département de Cardiologie, Hôpital Bichat-Claude Bernard, Paris, France. [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] CONTEXT: Few data document current cardiovascular (CV) event rates in stable patients with atherothrombosis in a community setting. Differential event rates for patients with documented coronary artery disease (CAD), cerebrovascular disease (CVD), or peripheral arterial disease (PAD) or those at risk of these diseases have not been previously evaluated in a single international cohort. OBJECTIVE: To establish contemporary, international, 1-year CV event rates in outpatients with established arterial disease or with multiple risk factors for atherothrombosis. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: The Reduction of Atherothrombosis for Continued Health (REACH) Registry is an international, prospective cohort of 68 236 patients with either established atherosclerotic arterial disease (CAD, PAD, CVD; n = 55 814) or at least 3 risk factors for atherothrombosis (n = 12 422), who were enrolled from 5587 physician practices in 44 countries in 2003-2004. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Rates of CV death, myocardial infarction (MI), and stroke. RESULTS: As of July 2006, 1-year outcomes were available for 95.22% (n = 64 977) of participants. Cardiovascular death, MI, or stroke rates were 4.24% overall: 4.69% for those with established atherosclerotic arterial disease vs 2.15% for patients with multiple risk factors only. Among patients with established disease, CV death, MI, or stroke rates were 4.52% for patients with CAD, 6.47% for patients with CVD, and 5.35% for patients with PAD. The incidences of the end point of CV death, MI, or stroke or of hospitalization for atherothrombotic event(s) were 15.20% for CAD, 14.53% for CVD, and 21.14% for PAD patients with established disease. These event rates increased with the number of symptomatic arterial disease locations, ranging from 5.31% for patients with risk factors only to 12.58% for patients with 1, 21.14% for patients with 2, and 26.27% for patients with 3 symptomatic arterial disease locations (P<.001 for trend). CONCLUSIONS: In this large, contemporary, international study, outpatients with established atherosclerotic arterial disease, or at risk of atherothrombosis, experienced relatively high annual CV event rates. Multiple disease locations increased the 1-year risk of CV events. |
#65
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Õîòåëîñü áû âñå-òàêè ïîíÿòü, êàêîé "âåñ" â ýòîé êîìïîçèòíîé êîíå÷íîé òî÷êå ó ñìåðòíîñòè, à êàêîé - ó ïîâòîðíîé ãîñïèòàëèçàöèè
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#66
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Òàáëèöà 3 â óïîìÿíóòîé âûøå ñòàòüå:
All-cause mortality: CAD 2.89 (2.63-3.15) PAD 3.76 (3.27-4.25) My case is rested |
#67
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Ðå÷ü èäåò î èçîëèðîâàííîé PAD, áåç ÈÁÑ? Ïðîñòî çà÷àñòóþ PAD ÿâëÿåòñÿ ñâèäåòåëüñòâîì ñèñòåìíîãî àòåðîñêëåðîçà. Ó íàñ òàêèõ íàçûâàþò "çàñëóæåííûé ñêëåðîòèê Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà".
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#68
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È âñå æå ïàöèåíòû ñ èçîëèðîâàííîé PAD íàõîäÿòñÿ â òîé æå ãðóïïå ðèñêà, ÷òî è ñ CAD èëè CVD. ×åì áîëüøå ïîðàæåííûõ ñîñóäîâ, òåì õóæå ïðîãíîç:
The rates of ischaemic events increased with the number of affected vascular beds. The adjusted odds ratio for the composite of in-hospital ischaemic events for pre-existent disease in 1, 2, or 3 arterial beds (compared with 0 arterial bed involvement) increased from 1.07 to 1.26 to 1.31 (P < 0.001). /Eur Heart J. 2009 May;30(10):1195-202./ Ïàöèåíòû ñ PAD ìîãóò íåäîïîëó÷àòü íóæíîå ëå÷åíèå: The PAD patients had a worse long-term prognosis (hazard ratio 2.40, 95% confidence interval 2.18 to 2.65) and received less medication (beta-blockers, statins, angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors, aspirin, nitrates, and calcium antagonists) than CAD patients did (p < 0.001). //J Am Coll Cardiol. 2008 Apr 22;51(16):1588-96. Ó íèõ æå ìîæåò áûòü ïðîñòî áåññèìïòîìíàÿ/íåäèàãíîñòèðîâàííàÿ CAD, êîòîðàÿ è îïðåäåëÿåò ïðîãíîç: Especially in patients with PAD, high incidences of coronary artery disease (CAD) have been observed, which may be asymptomatic or symptomatic. The prognosis of patients with PAD is related to the presence and extent of underlying CAD. In patients with PAD undergoing major vascular surgery, cardiac complications are the major cause of perioperative morbidity and mortality and indicate a high-risk for adverse long-term cardiac outcome. //J Cardiovasc Surg (Torino). 2009 Feb;50(1):109-21
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#69
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Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
Öèòàòà:
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#70
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ß òàê ïîíÿë, ÷òî è â Åâðîïå èõ íåäîëå÷èâàþò... Îäíàêî äåëî íå â ýòîì. Àâòîðû ñîîáùàþò, ÷òî "these higher event rates may be driven by a larger proportion of patients with PAD (approximately 60%) having polyvascular disease than the CAD cohorts (25%) or CVD cohorts (40%)".
È äàëåå: "When focusing on patients with disease of a single arterial bed, patients with PAD alone were observed to experience lower CV death and CV death, MI, or stroke rates than patients with CAD or CVD". Ïîñëåäíåå íåñêîëüêî ïðîòèâîðå÷èò Âàøèì èçíà÷àëüíûì ïîñûëêàì î áîëüøåé îïàñíîñòè èçîëèðîâàííîé PAD. Åñëè ïîëíûé òåêñò Âàì íåäîñòóïåí, ìîãó âûñëàòü, õîòÿ îí âðîäå áû âïîëíå äîñòèæèì. |
#71
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Ìîÿ ïîñûëêà çâó÷èò ñëåäóþùèì îáðàçîì: äèàãíîç PAD îçíà÷àåò "âûñîêèé ðèñê" (íèêòî íå ñïîðèò, ÷òî ýòîò ðèñê ìóëüòèôàêòîðíûé) - à çíà÷èò, àêòèâíîå íàáëþäåíèå è îïòèìèçàöèÿ òåðàïèè. Ïàöèåíò ñ òàêèì âûñîêèì ðèñêîì äîëæåí ðóòèííî êîíòðîëèðîâàòüñÿ ó òåðàïåâòà. Åñëè ýòî äåëàåò êàðäèîëîã, çàìå÷àòåëüíî! Êàðäèîëîãè - ýòî íàøå âñå! À ÷òî äåëàòü òåì ïàöèåíòàì, ó êîòîðûõ ïîðàæåíèå êîðîíàðíûõ àðòåðèé íå íàñòîëüêî âûðàæåíî, ÷òîáû èõ ÷àñòî êîíòðîëèðîâàëè êàðäèîëîãè? È âñå ëè êàðäèîëîãè óìåþò, èìåþò âðåìÿ è õîòÿò íà ñîâðåìåííîì óðîâíå êîíòðîëèðîâàòü ïåðèôåðèþ?
Ðåøåíèÿ ýòîé ïðîáëåìû ìîãóò áûòü ðàçíûå: ìîæíî îáó÷èòü êàðäèîëîãîâ ñîâðåìåííûì ìåòîäàì êîíòðîëÿ ïåðèôåðè÷åñêèõ ïîðàæåíèé, ìîæíî íàó÷èòü ýòèì ìåòîäàì îáùèõ òåðàïåâòîâ è íàçâàòü èõ, íàïðèìåð, àíãèîëîãàìè (à ìîæíî è íå íàçûâàòü) è êîíòðîëèðîâàòü âìåñòå ñ êàðäèîëîãàìè "ñ äâóõ ñòîðîí". ß íå çíàþ, êàêîé ïîäõîä ëó÷øå. Íî ïîäõîä "îñòàâèòü ýòèõ ïàöèåíòîâ â èñêëþ÷èòåëüíîå âåäåíèå õèðóðãàì", êàæåòñÿ ìíå íåïðàâèëüíûì. Âïîëíå äîïóñêàþ, ÷òî è â Åâðîïå íå ñïðàâëÿþòñÿ. Ïîòîìó è èäåò ñåé÷àñ ñòîëüêî äèñêóññèé, êàê ëó÷øå ïîäîéòè ê äàííîìó âîïðîñó. |
#72
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Äîðîãîé êîëëåãà!
Äà â Ðîññèè ëþäè ñ âïîëíå ñåáå âûðàæåííîé ÈÁÑ êîíòðîëèðóþòñÿ èç ðóê âîí ïëîõî. È äàé Áîã êàðäèîëîãè íàøè ñòàòèíû áóäóò ãðàìîòíî íàçíà÷àòü ñ âàðôàðèíîì. À ïîòîì óæ Âàøó àíãèîëîãè÷åñêóþ ïðåìóäðîñòü îñâîÿò. Ïóñòü ñíà÷àëà àíãèîëîãè â Åâðîïå è ÑØÀ ïîÿâÿòñÿ, óòâåðäÿòñÿ.À òàì è ìû ïðèìêíåì. À õèðóðãè ëå÷èòü òàáëåòêàìè íå äîëæíû. ÇÛ: Íàëè÷èå êëèíè÷åñêè âûðàæåííîãî àòåðîñêëåðîçà âñåãäà âûñîêèé ðèñê. Îäíàêî Âû óòâåðæäàëè, ÷òî PAD ñòðàøíåå CAD, ÷òî íå ñîâñåì âåðíî. Äàâàéòå âïðåäü ïîñòàðàåìñÿ èçáåãàòü ëîçóíãî-ïîäîáíûõ óòâåðæäåíèé è ïðî÷èòûâàòü ñòàòüè äî êîíöà. |
#73
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Ïîäõîä ìåäèêàìåíòîçíîãî âåäåíèÿ ïàöèåíòîâ ñ àòåðîñêëåðîçîì (áóäü òî PAD, CAD èëè CVD) ïðèíöèïèàëüíî íå îòëè÷àåòñÿ: ïðîñòî íóæíî îáó÷èòü òåðàïåâòîâ íàçíà÷àòü á-áëîêåðû, ñòàòèíû, ïðèëû è ïðî÷. ïàöèåíòàì ñ ÏÀÄ, êàê äåëàþò êàðäèîëîãè è íåâðîëîãè äëÿ ñâîèõ ïàöèåíòîâ, òîãäà è ïðîãíîç íå áóäåò îòëè÷àòüñÿ.
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#74
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Öèòàòà:
Íàëè÷èå PAD ãîâîðèò î õóäøåì ïðîãíîçå (çíà÷èò ñëîâî "PAD" â äèàãíîçå, ñòðàøíåå ÷åì "CAD"). Èìåííî íà ýòèõ ïàöèåíòîâ, ÈÌÕÎ, è íàäî îáðàòèòü ìàêñèìàëüíîå âíèìàíèå, è èìåííî èõ è äîëæíû, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, ðåãóëÿðíî êîíòðîëèðîâàòü òåðàïåâòû, à â ðåàëüíîñòè êëþ÷åâóþ ðîëü èãðàåò íàëè÷èå CAD - äàííûé àêöåíò, õîòü è ïðèâû÷åí, íî ïðîòèâîðå÷èò ïðèâåäåííûì âûøå äàííûì. Ýòî è áûëà ìîÿ òåçà. Öèòàòà:
ÇÛ: âåäü ïðàâäà æå ñòàòüÿ èíòåðåñíàÿ? |
#75
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Íàëè÷èå ÏÀÄ ãîâîðèò î íåäîñòàòî÷íî àäåêâàòíîì ëå÷åíèè, è ïîýòîìó - î õóäøåì ïðîãíîçå:
Ýòî è çäåñü - results of the prospective German REACH registry cohort:Patients with PAD + CAD compared to those with PAD only were significantly more intensively treated with regards to antihrombotic agents (97.1% vs. 88.8%), statins (80.2% vs. 51.6%), or ACE inhibitors/ARB (75.6% vs. 61.1%); è òàì - Alberta Provincial Program for Outcome Assessment in Coronary Heart Disease (APPROACH) Investigators: Although all evidence-based therapies are underused in patients with CAD, patients with concomitant PAD are less likely to be prescribed antiplatelet agents or beta-blockers--both agents are associated with improved survival in patients with CAD and PAD. À êàê îöåíêà ïðîãðåññèè çàáîëåâàíèÿ âëèÿåò íà íàçíà÷åíèå àíòèòðîìáîòèêîâ, áëîêåðîâ, ñòàòèíîâ, ïðèëîâ è òï?
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |