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Îïöèè òåìû Ïîèñê â ýòîé òåìå Îïöèè ïðîñìîòðà
  #31  
Ñòàðûé 21.02.2007, 13:12
Àâàòàð äëÿ Abugov
Abugov Abugov âíå ôîðóìà
Ðåíòãåíîõèðóðã
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 20.02.2007
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,179
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 202 ðàç(à) çà 197 ñîîáùåíèé
Çàïèñåé â äíåâíèêå: 2
Abugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñïàñèáî dmblok! Êàê âñåãäà óáåäèòåëüíûé è ðàçâåðíóòûé îòâåò. Âî âñåì, ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ êîðîíàðíûõ àðòåðèé, âñåãäà áàëàíñ: ÷òî ëó÷øå èíôàðêò èëè èíñóëüò. Çàðàíåå ñîãëàøóñü, ÷òî îáà õóæå. Òåì íå ìåíåå, èìååì ëè ìû ïðàâî âûïîëíÿòü PCI çàðàíåå çíàÿ î âûñîêèõ öèôðàõ àãðåãàöèè?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #32  
Ñòàðûé 21.02.2007, 14:27
Àâàòàð äëÿ dmblok
dmblok dmblok âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Êàíäèäàò â âåòåðàíû ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 05.11.2006
Ãîðîä: Msk
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1,827
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 6
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 67 ðàç(à) çà 62 ñîîáùåíèé
dmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò saab
Ñïàñèáî dmblok! Êàê âñåãäà óáåäèòåëüíûé è ðàçâåðíóòûé îòâåò. Âî âñåì, ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ êîðîíàðíûõ àðòåðèé, âñåãäà áàëàíñ: ÷òî ëó÷øå èíôàðêò èëè èíñóëüò. Çàðàíåå ñîãëàøóñü, ÷òî îáà õóæå. Òåì íå ìåíåå, èìååì ëè ìû ïðàâî âûïîëíÿòü PCI çàðàíåå çíàÿ î âûñîêèõ öèôðàõ àãðåãàöèè?
Ïðîáëåìà ñ êîòîðîé ñòàëêèâàåòåñü òîëüêî Âû! Òàê, êàê äðóãèå âîîáùå íå àíàëèçèðóþò àãðåãàöèþ ïåðåä âìåøàòåëüñòâîì è íå çàìîðà÷èâàþòñÿ ïî ýòîìó ïîâîäó.... Íåò, íå èìååì. Íî òîëüêî åñëè ñìîòðåòü íà àãðåãàöèþ â êîìïëåêñå. À åñëè ýòî êàñàåòñÿ òîëüêî îäíîãî ïîêàçàòåëÿ, òî ó ìåíÿ, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, íåò ÷åòêîãî îòâåòà íà ýòîò âîïðîñ. Ïîêà èíîãî ñïîñîáà áîðüáû ñ ðåçèñòåíòíîñòüþ, ñ äîêàçàííîé ïîëüçîé, êðîìå áëîêàòîðîâ IIb/IIIa ìíå íå èçâåñòíî. ß íå çíàþ, íóæíî ëè â ñëó÷àå ðåçèñòåíòíîñòè óâåëè÷èâàòü äîçó, íàïðèìåð, êëîïèäîãðåëÿ. È åñëè íóæíî òî íàñêîëüêî è êàê äîëãî. Êàêàÿ äîëæíà áûòü êðàòíîñòü âçÿòèÿ ëàáîðàòîðíûõ ïðîá è òä. Òî ÷òî ðåçèñòåíòíîñòü ìîæíî çàáîðîòü ïîíÿòíî. Âîïðîñ - ÷åðåâàòî ëè ýòî äëÿ áîëüíîãî îñëîæíåíèÿìè? Ìîæåò íàäî äîïîëíèòåëüíî ïðîâåñòè, êàêèå-íèáóäü èññëåäîâàíèÿ. Çíàþ, ÷òî â îòëè÷èè îò ìíîãèõ êëèíèê ó Âàñ ïðèíÿòî ïðîâîäèòü âñåì ïàöèåíòàì ïåðåä ïðîöåäóðîé ÝÃÄÑ. Âîçìîæíî ñïåêòð îáñëåäîâàíèé íóæíî ðàñøèðèòü. Ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî Âàøà òàêòèêà âåäåíèÿ áîëüíûõ ïðàâèëüíàÿ. Âàø îïûò íàäî ïðîàíàëèçèðîâàòü. Òî÷íîñòü èññëåäîâàíèÿ íåñîìíåííî ïîâûñèòñÿ åñëè ïàðàëëåëüíî ñìîòðåòü äðóãèå ïóòè àãðåãàöèè òðîìáîöèòîâ. Ïðè íåîáõîäèìîñòè Âàø ñîèñêàòåëü ìîæåò ïðîêîíñóëüòèðîâàòüñÿ ñ ïðîô. Ìàçóðîâûì è ïðîô. Äîáðîâîëüñêèì ó íèõ êðóïíûé òåîðèòè÷åñêèé îïûò â ýòîì âîïðîñå, îðèãèíàëüíûå ìåòîäèêè.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #33  
Ñòàðûé 21.02.2007, 22:45
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,778
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,419 ðàç(à) çà 31,764 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ î÷åâèäöà, ïåðåäåëàâøåãî íå îäèí äåñÿòîê àãðåãàöèé çà ðóáåæîì, õî÷åòñÿ äîáàâèòü, ÷òî ÀÄÔ-àãðåãàöèÿ - ýòî âñåãî ëèøü îäíà ãðàíü ìíîãîãðàííèêà òðîìáèöèòàðíîé àãðåãàöèè, êîòîðàÿ çàâèñèò è î÷åíü ÷óâñòâèòåëüíà ê òàêèì ìîìåíòàì, êàê èñõîäíîå ÷èñëî òðîìáîöèòîâ â èññëåäóåìîé ïëàçìå, êà÷åñòâå ÀÄÔ è åãî êîíöåíòðàöèè (íàïð. åñëè ðàñòâîð ÀÄÔ äåðæàòü íå íà ëüäó â ïðîöåññå ïðîâåäåíèÿ àãðåãàöèè, òî ÷åðåç íåñêîëüêî ÷àñîâ îí òåðÿåò àêòèâíîñòü è ìîæåò äàòü ìåíüøóþ àãðåãàöèþ ó òîãî æå ïàöèåíòà, à äîêòîðà ñèíòåðïðåòèðóþò ýòî êàê ïðåîäîëåíèå ðåçèñòåíòíîñòè íà ôîíå ïîâûøåíèÿ äîçû ëåêàðñòâà). Ha ñòàíäàðòèçèðîâàííîì âçÿòèè êðîâè è ñâîåâðåìåííîì ïåðåìåøèâàíèè åå ñ àíòèêîàãóëÿíòîì äàæå íå àêöåíòèðóþ âíèìàíèÿ.

Åñëè ãîâîðèòü î ñïåöèôè÷íîñòè àãðåãàöèè, òî ÀÄÔ-èíäóöèðîâàííàÿ íå îñîáåííî õîðîøà äëÿ àñïèðèíà, äëÿ íåå ñëåäóåò èñïîëüçîâàòü àðàõèäîíîâóþ êèñëîòó â êà÷åñòâå àêòèâàòîðà, íî íà ìîé âçãëÿä î÷åíü âåðíîå ñëåäóþùåå çàìå÷àíèå:
...different activators (thrombin, collagen, ADP, and thromboxane) may influence platelet aggregation depending on the type of disease encountered. Thus, aspirin may be less effective in some diseases where activation of the platelet is not dependent on thromboxane synthesis. This observation may be relevant to the occurrence of ischemic events despite aspirin treatment that is otherwise described as "clinical aspirin resistance." (J Interven Cardiol 2006;19:439–448)

à ó êëîïèäîãðåëÿ êàê èçâåñòíî:

It is now widely appreciated that there is marked interindividual variability in platelet inhibition after clopidogrel ingestion.6,17–19 Patients showing little platelet inhibition after clopidogrel have been labeled "hyporesponders," "low responders," "nonresponders," and "resistant." The incidence depends on whether one uses relative17 or absolute18 differences in platelet aggregation before and after clopidogrel and whether one uses arbitrary cut points17,18 or 2 standard deviations from the mean19 to define low responders. Importantly, increasing the clopidogrel loading dose to 600 mg does not decrease the phenomenon of interindividual variability.4,6

Although there have been no prospective studies demonstrating that the degree of platelet inhibition is directly related to clinical outcomes, several reports have shown an association between less platelet inhibition and more adverse clinical events after PCI with aspirin,20 clopidogrel,21 or GP IIb/IIIa inhibitor22 therapy. Because the pharmacological mechanism of clopidogrel in patients undergoing PCI is to inhibit platelet aggregation, it would appear that many low responders are receiving suboptimal platelet inhibition as compared with patients with excellent responses to clopidogrel or patients receiving GP IIb/IIIa inhibitor therapy.

Loading, Pretreatment, and Interindividual Variability Issues With Clopidogrel Dosing
Circulation. 2005;111:2557-2559.

Ó÷èòûâàÿ ìíîãîãðàííîñòü òðîìáîòè÷åñêîãî ïðîöåññà êàê òàêîâîãî, åùå ðàç ïîâòîðþñü, ÷òî "íå àãðåãàöèåé åäèíîé æèâ ãåìîñòàç" è íåïëîõî áû èíòåðâåíöèîííûì êàðäèîëîãàì èìåòü â çàïàñå è èññëåäîâàíèÿ íà òðîìáîôèëèþ: ïîðîé ïàöèåíòû ñî ñòåíò-òðîìáîçàìè èìåþò ñåðüåçíûå àíòèêîàãóëÿöèîííûå äåôåêòû è èõ ñâîåâðåìåííîå âûÿâëåíèå è ïåðåõîä ñ àíòèòðîìáèòèêîâ íà àíòèêîàãóëÿíòû ïðåäîòâðàùàþò ïîâòîðíûå ýïèçîäû:

Su HM, Lee KT, Chu CS, Sheu SH, Lai WT.
Acute thrombosis after elective direct intracoronary stenting in primary antiphospholipid syndrome: a case report.
Kaohsiung J Med Sci. 2003 Apr;19(4):177-82.

Cakir O, Ayyildiz O, Oruc A, Eren N.
A young adult with coronary artery and jugular vein thrombosis: a case report of combined protein S and protein C deficiency.
Heart Vessels. 2002 Dec;17(2):74-6.

Acar G, Dogan A, Altinbas A, Turker Y.
Recurrent acute stent thrombosis associated with protein C and S deficiencies.
Int J Cardiovasc Imaging. 2006 Jun-Aug;22(3-4):333-7.

Weissman A, Coplan NL.
Antiphospholipid antibody syndrome and acute stent thrombosis.
Rev Cardiovasc Med. 2006 Fall;7(4):244-6.

Âñåì èíòåðâåíöèîííûì êàðäèîëîãàì ðåêîìåíäóþ íåäàâíþþ ïóáëèêàöèþ ïî òåìå (ó êîãî íåò äîñòóïà - ïðèñûëàéòå ìûëî ÷åðåç ËÑ):
Aspirin and Clopidogrel Resistance: Consideration and Management.
Journal of Interventional Cardiology 2006
__________________
Èñêðåííå,
Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #34  
Ñòàðûé 27.02.2007, 00:53
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,778
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,419 ðàç(à) çà 31,764 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Áûòü ìîæåò, êîìó è ïðèãîäèòñÿ ôðàíöóçñêèé îïûò áîðüáû ñ êëîïè-ðåçèñòåíòíîñòüþ: âîçâðàò ê òèêëîïèäèíó, ïîêà íå ïîÿâèëñÿ ïðàçóãðåë?:

Aleil B, Rochoux G, Monassier JP, Cazenave JP, Gachet C.
Ticlopidine could be an alternative therapy in the case of pharmacological resistance to clopidogrel: a report of three cases.
J Thromb Haemost. 2006 Nov 30
__________________
Èñêðåííå,
Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #35  
Ñòàðûé 27.02.2007, 01:06
Àâàòàð äëÿ Gilarov
Gilarov Gilarov âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 7,196
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 713 ðàç(à) çà 691 ñîîáùåíèé
Gilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Îïûò, ïðÿìî ñêàæåì, íåáîãàòûé...
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #36  
Ñòàðûé 27.02.2007, 01:32
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,778
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,419 ðàç(à) çà 31,764 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Íàâåðíî, íå÷àñòû ýòè ñëó÷àè, ê ñ÷àñòüþ

Àìåðèêàíöû òîæå âîò îïèñàëè ñëó÷àé óñïåøíîãî ïðèìåíåíèÿ òèêëèäà è öèëîñòàçîëà, êîãäà íà êëîïè ðàçâèëàñü ÒÒÏ:

J Invasive Cardiol. 2006 Jul;18(7):E211-3.
Use of ticlopidine and cilostazol after intracoronary drug-eluting stent placement in a patient with previous clopidogrel-induced thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura: a case report

 îáùåì-òî ÿâëåíèå ðåäêîå: ìîæåò ñîòíÿ ïàöèåíòîâ/ñëó÷àåâ ïî âñåìó ìèðó çà ýòè 7 ëåò, íî âåäü êàê-òî èõ íóæíî âåñòè äàëåå (îñîáåííî òåõ, êòî ïåðåæèë ýòîò ýïèçîä)?
__________________
Èñêðåííå,
Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #37  
Ñòàðûé 27.02.2007, 04:04
Àâàòàð äëÿ alex_md
alex_md alex_md âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Êàíäèäàò â âåòåðàíû ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 12.02.2004
Ãîðîä: Maine, USA
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1,771
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
alex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalex_md ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Check PFA-100 âñåì ïàöèåíòàì ïðè íàçíà÷åíèè àíòèàããðåãàíòîâ? Ñëèøêîì äîðîãî è íåïðàêòè÷íî.  ïåðñïåêòèâå âîçìîæíî, òàê îíî è áóäåò, íî ïîêà ÿ áû âîçäåðæàëñÿ îò òàêèõ ïîäâèæåê. Äëÿ ìåíÿ ëè÷íî åñòü òîëüêî îäèí ïîâîä íàçíà÷èòü PFA-100 - ïîäîçðåíèå íà VW. Êñòàòè â ñâîåé ïðàêòèêå ñ ýòîãî ãîäà ïî÷òè ïîëíîñòüþ ïåðåøåë íà Angiomax. Ïðîñòî è êàðäèîëîãàì íðàâèòñÿ. Êñòàòè, åñòü ëè ìåñòíûé ðîññèéñêèé îïûò ñòåíòèðîâàíèÿ íà àíãèîìàêñå?

PS: See some of you guys in New Orleans next month?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #38  
Ñòàðûé 27.02.2007, 06:43
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,778
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,419 ðàç(à) çà 31,764 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò alex_md
Êñòàòè, åñòü ëè ìåñòíûé ðîññèéñêèé îïûò ñòåíòèðîâàíèÿ íà àíãèîìàêñå?
Bivalirudin äîìà, ïîõîæå, äàæå íå çàðåãèñòðèðîâàí...


Äà è PFA-100 òîæå íåò...
__________________
Èñêðåííå,
Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #39  
Ñòàðûé 09.03.2007, 02:10
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,778
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,419 ðàç(à) çà 31,764 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Not aspirin resistance, just lower responce to aspirin

Îá îòñóòñòâèè ôåíîìåíà "àñïèðèí-ðåçèñòåíòíîñòü" èëè ïî÷åìó òðîìáîöèòû íà ôîíå ïðèåìà àñïèðèíà ó÷àñòâóþò â òðîìáîîáðàçîâàíèè:

Rao et al. at the University of Minnesota have discovered an intrinsic phenomenon called membrane modulation, which is capable of securing irreversible aggregation of drug-induced refractory platelets. The novel mechanism is modulated by the stimulation of the alpha-adrenergic receptors and restores the sensitivity of drug-induced refractory platelets to the action of agonists. This observation may partially explain why none of the currently available antiplatelet drugs are effective in the total prevention of in vivo platelet activation and formation of thrombi. Aspirin and clopidogrel only inhibit one of the many platelet activation mechanisms. Therefore, they do not offer full protection from the risk of acute vascular events. Furthermore, their studies have demonstrated that when aspirin-treated platelets are subjected to interaction with exposed subendothelial cell matrix under flow conditions, there is more adhesion and aggregation of aspirin-exposed cells than normal platelets. Though aspirin reduces the thrombus formation on the exposed cell matrix components, it does not prevent the formation of massive aggregates.

Furthermore, when epinephrine was used in such flow conditions, adrenergic receptor modulation restored the ability for thrombus formation of aspirin-exposed platelets. It is essential to learn who is truly resistant to aspirin, as defined by its inability to inhibit platelet COX-1, so that appropriate measurements or alternate prophylactic therapy can be administered. Even all those patients who are considered responders to the aspirin therapy (which is usually the case) may need additional protection if their platelets are still sensitive or hypersensitive to other agonists (such as collagen exposed on subendothelium after endothelial damage or plaque rupture) or have a hypercoagulation pathway. Incorrect definition of aspirin resistance, based on a variation in incorrect detection methods used and lack of data from large clinical trials, has hampered the advancement of knowledge in this area.

Semin Thromb Hemost. 2007 Mar;33(2):210-4.
Aspirin resistance: does it exist?
Rao GH, Michiels JJ.
__________________
Èñêðåííå,
Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #40  
Ñòàðûé 09.03.2007, 02:20
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,778
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,419 ðàç(à) çà 31,764 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ïðîñïåêòèâíîå íàáëþäåíèå çà "ãèïîðåñïîíäåðàìè" íà êëîïèäîãðåë îò íåìåöêîãî ìýòðà Meinrad Gawaz:

To evaluate the clinical impact of low response to clopidogrel, we performed a prospective study on patients treated with coronary stenting for symptomatic coronary artery disease. All patients received a loading dose of 600 mg clopidogrel before coronary stenting and aspirin 100 mg daily. During the study period, 379 (95.2%) of 398 eligible patients were enrolled in this study. For 363 of these patients, the primary end point of major cardiovascular events (myocardial infarction, ischemic stroke, or cardiovascular death) was evaluated after 3 months.

The mean of ADP(20 μmol/L)-induced aggregation of the tested 379 patients was 34.5 ± 22.6% and platelet activity of the study population followed a normal distribution. Twenty-two patients (5.8%) showed a platelet aggregation < 30% and were defined as clopidogrel low responders. In univariate analysis, patients with acute coronary syndrome were more frequently low responders to clopidogrel than patients with stable angina pectoris who elected to received coronary stent implantation (81.8 versus 43.1; p < 0.001).

A total of 19 patients (5.2%) died; 14 died as a result of cardiovascular causes (3.9%). Other causes of death included acute renal failure (n = 1), pneumonia (n = 2), and multiorgan failure (n = 2). Five patients had nonfatal acute myocardial infarction (1.4%) and five patients suffered from nonfatal ischemic stroke (1.4%) within 3-month follow-up.

Low response to clopidogrel was associated with an increased risk of a major cardiovascular event and increased risk of death from cardiovascular causes after 3 months (composite cardiovascular events: 22.7 versus 5.6%; odds ratio [OR], 4.9; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.66 to 14.96; p < 0.05, cardiovascular mortality: 18.2% versus 2.9%; OR, 7.36; 95% CI, 2.10 to 25.75; p < 0.01).

In univariate analysis, the occurrence of a major cardiovascular event within 3 months was influenced significantly by low response to clopidogrel (p = 0.01), severe left ventricular dysfunction (p < 0.001), advanced age (p < 0.01), and treatment with statins (p = 0.01).

In multivariable Cox regression analysis the occurrence of a major cardiovascular event after coronary stent implantation was influenced significantly by severe left ventricular dysfunction and low response to clopidogrel (low response to clopidogrel: HR, 3.71; 95% CI, 1.17 to 12.69; p < 0.05; severe left ventricular dysfunction: HR, 3.81; 95% CI, 1.38 to 10.53; p = 0.01.

Èç Semin Thromb Hemost 2007; 33: 196-202
Variable Response to Clopidogrel in Patients with Coronary Artery Disease
__________________
Èñêðåííå,
Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #41  
Ñòàðûé 09.03.2007, 10:11
Àâàòàð äëÿ Abugov
Abugov Abugov âíå ôîðóìà
Ðåíòãåíîõèðóðã
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 20.02.2007
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,179
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 202 ðàç(à) çà 197 ñîîáùåíèé
Çàïèñåé â äíåâíèêå: 2
Abugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåAbugov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñïàñèáî Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷! Èíòåðåñíûå çàìåòêè èç èñòî÷íèêîâ, êîòîðûå ìû ïðàêòè÷åñêè íèêîãäà íå ÷èòàåì.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #42  
Ñòàðûé 09.03.2007, 16:49
rsp rsp âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 17.12.2006
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 686
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 58 ðàç(à) çà 51 ñîîáùåíèé
rsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìårsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìårsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìårsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìårsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìårsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìårsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìårsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìårsp ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Dr.Vad ñêàæèòå ïîæàëóéñòà, íà âàø âçãëÿä, ïðè àíàëèçå ÀÄÔ-èíäóöèðîâàííîé àãðåãàöèè òðîìáîöèòîâ èñïîëüçîâàíèå êàêîé êîíöåíòðàöèè àãîíèñòà â íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ áîëåå êîððåêòíà (5 èëè 20ììîëü/ë)? È ñîîòâåòñâåííî êàê êëàññèôèöèðîâàòü ðåçèñòåíòíîñòü ê êëîïèäîãðåëþ â çàâèñèìîñòè îò èñïîëüçîâàííûõ êîíöåíòðàöèé.  ëèòåðàòóðå êàê-òî íå íàáëþäàåòñÿ åäèíîãî ìíåíèÿ ïî ýòîìó âîïðîñó. Îäíè îïðåäåëÿþò ðåçèñòåíòíîñòü êàê äåëüòó àãðåãàöèþ (ðàçíèöà ìåæäó èñõîäíîé àãðåãàöèåé è àãðåãàöèåé íà ôîíå àíòèàãðåãàíòîâ) <10% , äðóãèå ðàñøèðÿþò êëàññèôèêàþ êàê <10% - ïîëíàÿ ðåçèñòåíòíîñòü, 10-30%=÷àñòè÷íàÿ ðåçèñòåíòíîñòü, >30%= àäåêâàòíûé îòâåò. À âîò ñïåöèàëèñòû èç SCAI íàñòîÿòåëüíî ðåêîìåíäóþò ðàññìîòðåòü íåîáõîäèìîñòü óâåëè÷åíèÿ äîçèðîâêè êëîïèäîãðåëÿ äî 150 ìã â ñëó÷àå, åñëè îòâåò <50% ó ïàöèåíòîâ "âûñîêîãî ðèñêà".
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #43  
Ñòàðûé 09.03.2007, 21:38
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,778
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,419 ðàç(à) çà 31,764 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Âñå ýòè âîïðîñû âñå åùå äèñêóòàáåëüíû è îòñóòñòâóåò åäèíîå ìíåíèå, òàê êàê ìåðÿþò âñå ïî-ñâîåìó, íàâåðíîå èìååò ñìûñë îðèåíòèðîâàòüñÿ íà ìíåíèå Gurbel PA, êîòîðîå ïîõîæå ÿâëÿåòñÿ ëèäèðóþùèì â AHA/ACC:
the difference between ADP-induced platelet aggregation before and after therapy was less than 10%(Response to 5 mcmol/l and 20 mcmol/l ADP), and in some patients platelet aggregation was greater after stent implantation. These patients were described as being clopidogrel resistant.

Åãî ïîñëåäíèå çàìå÷àíèÿ ïî ïîâîäó ðåêîìåíäàöèè:

the ACC/AHA Guidelines provide a Class IIb recommendation that “in patients in whom subacute
thrombosis may be catastrophic or lethal… platelet aggregation studies may be considered and the dose of clopidogrel increased to 150 mg per day if less than 50% inhibition of platelet aggregation is demonstrated”. The latter guidelines however, do not specify the methodology that should be used to assess inhibition. Moreover, there are very limited clinical data to support the cutpoint of 50% inhibition. In the CLEAR PLATELETS Study we observed periprocedural myocardial infarction only in those patients with 5 μM ADP-induced aggregation >50% . In the
CREST Study the cutpoint for stent thrombosis was 20 μM ADP-induced aggregation >40% [21].

Íèæå ñóììèðîâàíû âñå èñïîëüçîâàííûå êðèòåðèè ñëàáîãî îòâåòà/ðåçèñòåíòíîñòè ê êëîïèäîãðåëþ (èñòî÷íèêè íå ïðèâîæó, òàê êàê ýòîò àâòîð îïóáëèêîâàë 3 èëè 4 çåðêàëüíûõ îáçîðà çà ïîñëåäíèé ãîä).
Èçîáðàæåíèÿ
Òèï ôàéëà: gif Clopi.GIF (25.5 Êá, 60 ïðîñìîòðîâ)
__________________
Èñêðåííå,
Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #44  
Ñòàðûé 14.07.2008, 19:46
Àâàòàð äëÿ dmblok
dmblok dmblok âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Êàíäèäàò â âåòåðàíû ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 05.11.2006
Ãîðîä: Msk
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1,827
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 6
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 67 ðàç(à) çà 62 ñîîáùåíèé
dmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìådmblok ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
To Abugov and Audovichenko

Âàì ïîïàäàëàñü ýòà ñòàòüÿ: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
È åùå ýòà: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
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